To think euthanasia should be legal in the UK

[ThereWillBeAdequateFood]

Just that really. Many countries have legalised euthanasia for terminally ill adults. I think it’s about time the U.K. did the same?

It’s not right that it’s only an option for those with the money to go abroad to have this as an option.

@Alsohuman. I am not trivialising your experience with your own mother but merely pointing out that is personal to her. It’s not the case with everyone with a form of Dementia.

As happens my knowledge is anything but slight and theoretical; extensive professional knowledge including training people in the application of the Mental Capacity Act (2005).

My own mother is currently receiving end of live care in a nursing home and has recent advanced dementia following a major stroke in May. She’s being cared for in bed, surviving on sips of thickened fluid and unable to communicate. She was previously blind and deaf but living independently. She’s comfortable, well cared for, not distressed in any way but just waiting for the glimmer of life to extinguish. Should we or her GP kill her? I’m not sure. She can’t consent and always fought tenaciously to survive. She hated the idea of care homes but isn’t aware that’s where she is. I’m not sure that’s grounds to kill her; it would be because we, as her family find it difficult not for her benefit.

Your point is sad but not indicative of everyone’s experience.

If Dementia counted as a valid reason to legally top yourself (or your relatives) then so would depression, PTSD, BPD etc. Where do we draw the line? There are also Cancers where even a terminal prognosis could conceivably lead to many years of healthy life (bowel Cancer / brain cancer / some types of blood cancers), would those qualify? The 17 yo child rape victim who legally euthanised herself has already prompted calls for euthanasia to he reviewed in the Netherlands. To be honest I don’t think it should ever be allowed.

I agree completely.

Agree with everything that Cherry has said.

The problem with wanting to be euthanised in the case of dementia is that some people with dementia are perfectly happy. Should those who are not suffering be killed if they previously said they would opt for euthanasia? Because, sadly, the person who made that decision no longer exists.

I used to be fully in favour of legalising euthanasia. I now don't trust society/people enough for it to not be abused and have changed my mind.

I don't want palliative care. I don't want to be laying in a bed hearing the family discussing my pain management, my incontinence, immobility, to slowly die over many months.
I want to be part of a celebration of my life. To have gin and cake and talk about the good times. To kiss my children and hopefully my grand children goodbye.
I want a date so that I can prepare myself, do all that I need to do. To fill a room with flowers and photographs and beautiful music. How can that be worse than at best staring at a ceiling for months or at worse screaming my way through hours, days or weeks until my body gives up.
I wouldn't want to be missing out on the life I would hear outside of the room I was trapped in, I would find that exceptionally cruel.

As a family, my parents, my in-laws, my DB, DH and DCs we have always hoped that when our number is up we will be blessed to be able to make this decision on our death. I have one remaining relative from the generation before me. I am so worried that I too will not have the opportunity to have the death of my choice.

I think I am going to write a directive and ask my GP if they will hold it on file. Then at least my wishes are known should a law be passed and I am incapacitated.

Dementia is completely different to any other form of mental illness, it’s irreversible, terminal and caused by physical changes in the brain.

Frankly I’m appalled that I live in a society which is so focused on quantity of life at the expense of quality that it would force the empty shell of my body to continue an undignified existence long after the person that is me has left the building. That’s cruelty I can’t countenance.

As a result when - and I believe it is when, not if - I receive a dementia diagnosis I will have to make sure I die immediately for fear of leaving it too late, possibly losing a few years of enjoyable life. All so the society I live in can feel good about itself. Meanwhile, when it’s clear a beloved pet has had enough, we can provide it with a peaceful and dignified end. It’s bonkers.

I totally agree @Alsohuman.

'If Dementia counted as a valid reason to legally top yourself (or your relatives) then so would depression, PTSD, BPD etc.'

No, because all of these disorders are treatable. Dementia isn't. (It is true that sometimes a treatable disorder such as depression in an older person is misdiagnosed as dementia; and obviously it is important that the diagnosis is confirmed as definite before assisted suicide is even considered.

'Where do we draw the line?'

Surely we draw it where a disorder is (a) incurable and progressive; (b) has reached the point of causing unbearable suffering and/or loss of dignity to the person; and (c) where the person has currently, or in the case of loss of capacity previously, recorded a wish not to be kept alive under such conditions.

'There are also Cancers where even a terminal prognosis could conceivably lead to many years of healthy life (bowel Cancer / brain cancer / some types of blood cancers), would those qualify? '

Nobody to my knowledge has ever suggested that people with forms of cancer that can be kept at bay for long periods (even if unlikely to be permanently cured) should undergo assisted suicide/ euthanasia. It is people in the last, irreversible stages of cancer or other terminal diseases who may wish for this solution.

One general point: Suicide as such is legal. What is not currently legal is to assist another person in killing themselves. Thus, someone who wishes to die, whether because of a medical condition or any other reason, can usually choose a way to do so - sadly in the case where this is due to a temporary and treatable disorder such as depression. The issue of assisted suicide comes up with regard to people who are already so ill or incapacitated that they cannot take independent steps to kill themselves. Forbidding assisted suicide may actually cause some people to die much earlier, by killing themselves or (if they can even afford it) travelling to Switzerland while they are still capable of doing so, rather than wait for a time when they are too incapacitated to do so.

This is a sad topic, but we cannot pretend that it doesn't exist.

I am 100% in favour of voluntary euthanasia

My sister died from secondaries following melanoma in 1990. She knew her condition was terminal and did an enormous amount of research about the disease and what was likely to happen. Her 2 biggest fears were pain from secondaries and brain injury from brain secondaries. She lost her fear of being dead but not of what she would have to go through to get there.
She asked me to be with her should she decide that she no longer had sufficient quality of life and I agreed.

Luckily this didn't happen. I took her home one weekend and she phoned and spoke to all the family, saying her goodbyes even though her doctors were still talking in terms of months. She was getting to the point where she was too tired to talk for long.
She died in hospital the following weekend so luckily my help was not needed but I would have done it. I was losing my sister anyway. I would do everything in my power to ensure that her death was a peaceful and dignified as possible.

The Liverpool Care Pathway was never designed to deprive people of food and water. As PPs have posted, a body that is shutting down often stops digesting and food and water are not required. Liquids in particular should be offered on a regular basis but tube or drip feeding is not done. Where liquid (or food) is withheld this was a misuse of the pathway. Mouth care should always be done when a person stops wanting to drink.

Who is to say that someone like my DS or someone with dementia has no quality of life or isn't happy when given the right support Who is to say they have? Your son is lucky he has loving and dedicated parent/s. Would you want him to be kept alive should something happen and you were no longer able to care for him and he had to live somewhere where he was given a minimum level of physical care and even less emotional care.

A person with dementia may be quite happy but many are not. With someone who has previously stated a wish not to live in this condition and there are clearly distressed for long periods during most days I would defy anyone to say they are living a happy existence.

I echo PP I think the idea of life being so sacred we must preserve it at all costs is wrong. We are all going to die someday anyway. I would prefer it to be in comfort rather than long drawn out agony.

I do Agree , but the arguments against it will always prevail I'm afraid. It's not cheap to carry out abroad either/ the rich that want this route will be alright ( if they are up to the journey and meet the criteria etc )
It should be made that people can die peacefully in their own homes or a place close to home and not cost a fortune. Will never happen though.

I agree

I'm uneasy about having it enshrined in law. But I would like the law to turn a blind eye in some cases...

This just about sums it up for me.

Teyem Why would you legalise euthanasia on the grounds that is a kindness to help people out of this suffering and then exclude children from this mercy?

I wouldn't legalise euthanasia as I don't think legislation can be written tightly enough to prevent abuse - look at how the boundaries of the abortion act have been pushed back.

This, www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/07/belgium-authorised-euthanasia-terminally-nine-11-year-old-youngest/

and this www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/27/belgium-launches-first-criminal-investigation-of-euthanasia-case

and this www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2019/april/euthanasia-becoming-default-way-to-die-in-belgium

are interesting. The last one is perhaps not as objective as it could be, but still, shows some of the problems in Belgium.

The countries and other places where medically assisted suicide is legal are regularly dealing with the issues and ethical debates, particularly around the most commonly brought up issues with dementia, like the well-known questions raised by people openly stating they are taking that route sooner than they would like out of fears of crossing the capacity line. There have been some questionable situation that have come to light and questions about the consequences (and more than have been taken and twisted in the media for clicks). We can't act like it's been all smooth sailing for those places as a reason to do so here, either for the people choosing that route or the professionals involved many that have written about the emotional impact of this work. They've had and continue to have issues and concerns which the UK would need to consider and wrestle with as well.

I have mixed feelings, mainly because pretty much any system anyone makes is going to have flaws and I struggle to see past that when it comes to this. Having dealt with violent medical abuse and seen the circling around that too often happens when trying to bring said professionals to justice, had a family member who had a terminal condition who spent weeks out of it when he went into hospital for an unrelated issue and we were all called to say goodbye and it turned out he was being over-given drugs due to being terminal (he thankfully came to once this was discovered and remedied & he enjoyed many more months including getting married as he wished), as well as dealing with family pressure to kill myself due to them seeing me as a burden, there is part of me that can't really imagine how to create a system that would feel safe and reliable enough. I struggle with how to fit it in with the issues with palliative care and suicide prevention and all of the social issues around that that shouldn't be in competition but often feels like they are to me.

On the other hand, I recognize the partial comparisons that can be made in other areas of body autonomy that are similarly up for abuse socially and medically. I recognize that struggle is a reflection of my personal experiences that have changed me and my views, but aren't representative of the systems as a whole. I think better workable solutions including euthanasia are possible and it would possibly be better legal in the UK, but I don't think we're ever going to get a perfect system and these debates and concerns will continue as people try to find the best way to deal with the complicated issues involved.

So, YANBU, but people whose first instinct is more cautious on this kind of legal change aren't being entirely unreasonable either.

I have seen a number of elderly relatives deteriorate and die now. One went relatively peacefully and despite being really old, was a bit of a shock. one had dementia and that was awful and one had a stroke but had a poor quality of life for 6 months before. The worst one though was seeing my granny dying as there was no doubt she was in pain and was in quite a dark place. The last time I saw her, I left crying and wishing someone would put a pillow over her- it was incredibly distressing to see the suffering.

In 3/4 of those cases, death was a blessing. Of the 3, one would have been desperate for euthanasia but I’m not sure if the other two would have wanted it. If I knew I was going to die as those three did, I would 100% want the option of euthanasia. This is why personal choice must be taken into account and not just the views of relatives.

If I get a dementia diagnosis I’m off. Hopefully that diagnosis would be in time for me to do it myself

M’y MIL has just been diagnosed with dementia, last week. But it has taken a while, and, to my eyes at least, she has already lost «capacity». She can’t work a phone or make a cup of tea, she hallucinates, she forgets where she is and what she’s saying, she’s getting aggressive and less like her old self. No matter what she said now about euthanasia, I don’t believe any dr would agree that she had the capacity to choose it. She would have had to make that choice clear somehow before she lost capacity.

There will be - I'm not talking about hours here but an active choice to end life early in terms of months or years and the risks that poses in terms of coercion, lack of care, lack of family, burden issues etc etc .

I completely agree. We are kinder to animals than we are to humans.

I do agree in principle, having seen my FIL and MIL both die from different terminal illnesses. It was awful to see.

I do worry about potential abuse of the system though if it were to be legalised, and what safety measures would be introduced with it.

i agree, I've been a nurse for around 25 years and the pro life lobby keep saying all anyone needs is good care which is absolute garbage.
Some things cannot be made bearable with care good or otherwise.
I went to visit a friend in a nursing home the other day and this man with dementia screamed and shouted for the three hours I was there straight. He was distressed because he thought his wife had done something terrible to him, she hadn't but it was a delusion of his.
The carer said he's been doing this all day and most of the night for three years inconsolable, he had contractures and couldn't straighten his legs or arms at all.
Sometimes they sedate him if he gets completely hysterical and then he justs sits there vacant eyed and dribbling.
What kind of a life is that. He could go on for another 10 years.

Fwiw, i have two relatives in the Netherlands who have requested euthanasia. In both cases their request was rejected. In the first case because my relative suffered from dementia. Although she had written down her wishes when she was of sound mind, the GP wasn't convinced that her wishes hadn't changed. Instead my relative ended up suffering a slow and painful death.

In the second case, my relative did meet the criteria, but the GP didn't want to cooperate on ethical grounds (every GP in the Netherlands has the right to refuse to participate in euthanasia if they wish). My relative has now been referred to a euthanasia clinic, who will interview him at least 7 times before a decision is made whether they can help him.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the 'slippery slope'- concern, but I'm not sure people realise that even in countries where euthanasia is legal, how difficult it can be to actually be granted euthanasia.

This is something I absolutely cannot get my head round. While of sound mind you write a directive making your wishes perfectly clear about what you want when/if you’re robbed of that sound mind. When the time comes, your wishes are denied in case demented you might have changed their unreliable mind. It’s utter and complete bollocks. On that basis, why do we insist that people must have capacity to make wills? Demented you might change your mind.

If I am diagnosed with the early stages of dementia, I would immediately go to Dignitas, or wherever would take me,

so, probably losing a few years of quite tolerable life,

precisely because of all these "legal protections" from well-meaning people,
which would prevent me at a much later stage being euthanised / assisted to suicide

I was with my DM in her last days and hours, and I held her hand as she died. Her suffering was unspeakable.

I would have done anything to ease her inevitable passing, but I could do nothing.