To think euthanasia should be legal in the UK

[ThereWillBeAdequateFood]

Just that really. Many countries have legalised euthanasia for terminally ill adults. I think it’s about time the U.K. did the same?

It’s not right that it’s only an option for those with the money to go abroad to have this as an option.

I fully support the right to end your life if you are suffering from an incurable disease or condition. I lost my dad in January to renal failure & I saw the agony he was in over the last months of his life, unable to eat, his skin breaking due to the fluid build up, constant sickness, I would have given anything to stop his suffering.

I do realise this is a very complex and emotive topic, but if anyone does want to know a bit more about my experience of Dignitas, I'm very happy to answer any questions. I also did an 'ask me anything' this time last year.

I accompanied my mum to Dignitas AMA www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/3308602-i-accompanied-my-mum-to-dignitas-ama

Thank you for sharing your experience, Atreus, and again, I'm so very sorry for your loss .

Noeuf

Saying that other countries do it so we should is fine so long as we also replicate their family culture, social care and health care systems that make it an active choice and not a symptom of failure

The U.K. has some of the best palliative care in the world. I think the horrible truth about dying is that often it is painful sometimes it’s excruciating.

I don’t want Doctors withholding painkillers from someone on their deathbed because they are scared the extra pain relief might hasten their death by a day.

Winebottle I didn't mean the family could carry out euthanasia.
I meant today if your family member wanted to die but couldn't physically do it, the family couldn't help or they'll be arrested.
In today's society the person with the illness should have the right choose to end their life under a specialist care.

Atreus

I agree with you Op.
I wouldn't wish a slow and painful death on anyone.

Better palliative care would be great, but wouldn’t address the awful situation of many.

I don't see how anyone without capacity could be euthanised and that would account for a high number of potential candidates. Many of the scenarios presented here are of people who have lost capacity. This is not something I think relatives or a Court of Protection could decide. They can deal with many other issues imo but not the case of life or death

I think a good starting point would be allowing for 'living wills' in which people could specify whether they would wish to be euthanased if they are later deemed to have lost capacity.

Completely agree

Totally agree, YANBU. We are kinder to pets than to people!

Completely agree OP.

@Atreus, thank you for sharing your story and I am sorry for your loss.

My lovely MIL died in 2016. She was 98 and a week earlier had been fine, living alone, a bit doddery but active and no medication. She had an internal bleed and an ambulance was called, she refused hospital and treatment. The Dr was lovely, she talked to her and made it crystal clear (nicely) that if she stayed home this would be the end. MIL died, at home, 2 days later.

What facilitated this was the fact that she had very clear wishes about her death. We discussed it in detail in the previous 5yrs. She put in writing exactly what treatment she did or didn't want and filled in the advanced directive at the Drs surgery.

They couldn't have been kinder. She was sedated and given a morphine driver. Carers came 4 times a day. She died as peacefully as could be managed.

If you want to manage your death you need to plan it much earlier than you think. And you can't just tell someone, it has to be in writing with your doctor.

I am so grateful for the way her death was managed, but it was, in part, due to her forward planning.

No-one should be left suffering.

I’d be absolutely for assisted dying in cases of mental competence as in other countries but I can’t see how I could support it for dementia as nothing you signed years ahead would be a clear indication that the person wanted to die at x point. Also think dementia cases are the ones most likely to have family pressure surrounding them.

Has any country successfully made euthanasia dementia patients based on previous convictions legal?

DNR’ s can be useful here. Made when people can make their own decisions and give their wishes for future care. It’s very very hard to deal with but their choice

DNRs aren't the solution in lots of cases though. They don't help to end the suffering unless the patient goes into cardiac arrest.

I have an advanced directive but that only stipulates that I don't want heroic measures under certain circumstances. It doesn't mean that my suffering would be ended when I decide I've had enough.

Advanced directives (living wills) are about withholding care. They are not about allowing someone to kill you because you’ve lost capacity. You can’t use an advanced directive to kill someone as people change their mind when faced with the reality. An idea of what might be intolerable changes when people face the reality. Life experience changes us and we may no longer want to be killed off because our world has shrunk and revolves around Sammy the dog and a visit to a garden centre once a week with a friend whose name we forget.

Consent to do something (such as kill a person) can only be given when someone has consent to do it and has capacity to do so. Nobody can give consent on behalf of an another adult unless they have Lasting Power of Attorney for Health and Welfare - and then it has limitations. You cannot accept pre- dated consent. It would require a seismic change in law and professional guidance to so do. Would we really want a world where someone was killed because they lacked capacity. Plenty of people with degrees of dementia living very happy lives.
DNACPRs are only about cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Nothing else. They stop someone using a defibrillator or jumping up and down on your chest. It doesn’t stop any other treatment. That has to be a best interest, medical decision based on a ceiling of care discussion.

There are no countries that allow people without capacity to be killed but many where babies born with obvious disability are left to die.

The death of @nokidshere’s mother is how it should be. It’s how most are.

CherryPavlova

I fully understand the concept of advanced directives and DNRs. I was answering 6triesbuttingout about DNRs being useful here - they are only useful in certain circumstances. They aren't an alternative to assisted dying or euthanasia.

Dementia is not a life centred round Sammy the dog and a visit to the garden centre. It’s not recognising your spouse of 60 years, unable to read or follow a TV programme, wandering off in your nightie in the middle of the night, being unable to wash or dress yourself, being incontinent.

I don’t want that. I should be able to make that decision NOW while I’m my authentic self. If my future self wouldn’t make the same decision, it would be a clear indicator of lost capacity.

The dignitas site is actually very good, in order for assisted suicide you have to have sufficient physical capacity to self administer the drug which is in a glass of water from what I can gather. There are plenty of checks beforehand, I think it would be very difficult to coerce someone into doing it who didn’t want to. You also have to have a life limiting or terminal illness or be in permanent pain.

They also do a lot of work on suicide attempt prevention which is very important. For those pp who say you should be able to work out how to die. There are many many failed attempts that leave people worse off than before, you try jumping, you survive, but are left wheelchair bound and eating through a tube for example.

I understand why people want to not legalise it, but I want the option of a peaceful and pain free death.

Dignitas also says that very very few of its members actually make use of the ultimate service. You have to join as a member beforehand.

I have already told my DC that I will be trundling off to Dignitas when I become decrepit. I am not putting them through the horror of a lingering death like DF had. I have had intimate contact with others who had dementia and seen the heart break of that, too.

I have already made it crystal clear that if I have a stroke or an accident that would leave me reliant on machines to survive, or leave me unable to do anything for myself that nothing is done to save my life.

It is about time that laws are put into place so we can deal with this in the UK.

@Alsohuman I’m afraid you’re cohorting people when good care should be personalised. Dementia comes in many, many forms and Delirium has many causes. For many it is Sammy the Dog and the garden centre - particularly in milder forms or early stages.Dementia can be horrendous but it certainly isn’t always.

You are suggesting medical professionals are asked to make a decision to kill someone who can’t consent.
At what point do the doctors have aright to kill? When someone forgets the date a few times? The first time they wet themselves?
At what stage does it become acceptable? There are plenty of disabled people (some competing in Paralympics) who are unable to dress themselves. Many people- women particularly post childbirth- who are incontinent but leading very worthwhile lives. Working, raising children etc.
Should they be required to kill?
What (as in guardian article earlier in thread) someone needs restraining and fights the lethal injection?

I watched my mum’s descent into dementia @CherryPavlova. You can’t tell me anything I don’t know about it or say anything that would change my mind. Your trivialisation with silly comments about Sammy the dog and garden centres is a fair indication that your knowledge is slight and theoretical.

If I get it, I don’t want to live. End of. As the law stands now if I get a diagnosis I will have to kill myself immediately because I can’t make an advance directive so I can be helped to end it when the time is right.