Horrified by the spread of anti-Semitism in the UK

[Nancydrawn]

I read the article today by Richard Zimler, where he says that two different UK cultural organizations turned him down for a talk because he was Jewish.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/29/ive-never-met-antisemitism-in-britain-until-now

Not because he said anything controversial, not because his politics place him at an extreme, not because he's a public supporter of anything, but merely because he's Jewish. As his publicist said, "[he] told me that the final conversations he had with the two event co-ordinators convinced him that they weren’t antisemitic themselves but they feared a backlash – protests by their members and others – if they extended an invitation to a Jewish writer."

Again, this has nothing to do with Israel. There's no political cover here. It's just because he's Jewish, and it's straight up racism, and it's fucking horrific.

I don't really have an AIBU other than to say: what the fuck?

No, I definitely would say 'i hate America' (I hate Trump is a separate issue) or 'i hate Saudi Arabia' as examples. I don't mean I hate every individual American or Saudi...it's the culture/laws/what they stand for/human rights record...it IS shorthand for 'i hate XX Government' I think

Criticising the actions of the Israeli state = not anti-Semitism (or anti-Zionism)

Denying the Jews' right to self-determination = anti-Semitism (unless you are one of the very few who truly believes in no nations/borders/governments approach, in which case, this position is consistent with your beliefs,and you also object to self-determination for Kurds, Sawaharis, Scots, Somalilanders etc) and anti-Zionism

If you hold Israel to a different set of standards to any other nation state, you might want to examine your own motivations for this, though it doesn't make you automatically anti-Semitic.

Someone upthread mentioned Amos Oz, may his memory be a blessing. My two favourite quotes from him- (both from "Israel, Palestine and Peace"

In the 30s French graffiti read, "Jews, go to Palestine!" Now it says, "Jews, leave Palestine!" Why can't Europeans make their minds up?

And:
The trouble with Europeans, they see us Ashkenazim in Israel, and they think we're European, just like them. They forget we're a Middle Eastern state, in the Middle East.

Also - upthread someone talks about NW Jews who understand "love thy neighbour": that's Christian theology, and nothing at all to do with Torah.

It's getting to the point where anyone who criticises the utterly batshit plans to invade and 'take out' seven Muslim countries in five years (with our kids as the cannon fodder) is being called an antisemite though. I think that's very, very dangerous because it could get to a point where people just don't care about the accusation.

When people slag Trump off they don’t say “I hate America” in the way people are so quick to say that “hate Israel”. That’s the subtle difference. It’s subconscious

I agree with this. Also this thread was started about antisemitism in this country so why are we now talking about Israel? What is happening in a separate country is not relavant to how jewish people in this country should be treated by others.

A thread about islamophobia wouldn't descend into an argument over whether we should support saudi Arabia or not. They are separate issues and widely accepted as such.

sunshine it hasn't descended into that, but at 2320(?) hithere said;

The people who go around saying how much they “hate Israel” are usually antisemetic

To which I replied, if criticism of Israel equals anti-Semitism, then yes I am an anti-semite. And I stand by that

Anyway, I'm going to go off and try and read more about anti-Semitism in the UK, because I'm pretty confused about it

I've never taken any notice of the 'Jews control the world' conspiracies theorists. IME they are bat-shit anti-vaxxer types. I didn't think anyone took them seriously

Hefzi, I agree with much you say however, you say that "love thy neighbour" is Christian theology and not part of the Torah. The full quote is from the "Old Testament" which, according to Christian belief, Jesus taught to his followers, Jesus always claimed he was Jewish. The idea is very much a part of the Torah, which other parts of the ten commandments do you choose to ignore?

I didn't think anyone took them seriously

You would be surprised. It also spreads into other tropes such as media and banks etc.

Symphorien, I don't believe that "Love thy neighbour" is part of Ten Commandments: it's sometimes referred to as the "Great Commandment" because when the Pharisees are questioning Jesus, he says that this is the second commandment, after loving the Lord. The notion, and phrasing, of the term is Jesus' interpretation of not committing murder and not coveting your neighbour's wife etc

This is very much something that is unique to Jesus' interpretation iirc- it's not articulated in this way anywhere in the Torah. This is an example, imo, of how radical Jesus' teaching was - he took the existing moral and religious framework, and reinterpreted it in ways that hadn't been taught before, whether this was about kashrut or keeping the sabbath holy. There was an existing basis for his teaching, of course, but the interpretation and phraseology was often a complete departure from what had gone before. "Love thy neighbour" is very much a Christian expression of a theological standpoint - it doesn't mean it doesn't have a Torah basis. "Nothing at all to do with the Torah" was an over-statement, though, as I was using hyperbole to drive the point home, and for this I apologise.

This is rather a derail from the issue of the thread, though - though loving the Lord etc would encompass the exhortation over the holiness of the land, which the same poster I was originally addressing also mentioned, so I suppose, in a tortuous way there is overall a connection!

www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/05/no-direction-home-tragedy-jewish-left?fbclid=IwAR15OrqSoNMvP7_Q1rCLVaa8nJ-yTTh9bAF-L9JnLY_7rNS1Ptfwyj6bo34

A good article that covers the history of left wing judaism

then yes I am an anti-semite

Yes I agree you are.

Hi @Hefzi,
The love thy neighbor was mine. I may be misunderstanding as I’m not a practicing Jew and my heritage is Jewish from my mums grandfather. But from what I gathered growing up the 5 books of the Torah are pretty similar to the first 5 books of the Old Testament bible and vayikra is essentially leviticus where we find love they neighbor and similar.
But I am absolutely willing to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable than me

I don't understand why Jews and Israel are held to a higher standard than others. For example, the furore about Eurovision being in Israel this year when there was v little fuss about it being in places like Azerbaijan where human rights abuses are widespread. Israel is not an innocent state, but neither are most states in the world. I am a British Jew and don't feel why I should be made to feel defensive about Israel, or people assume what my views are on certain issues because of my religion

Joyfulllittlehippo: We just had a disgusting election cycle where a political party ran ads implying that Australian Chinese were not loyal. My defacto SIL admitted how uncomfortable this made her feel being Hong Kong born Chinese. She hates the Chinese government though and will straight come and say that they do terrible things and it's worse than we think.

We've been on the receiving end of this suspicion too being Irish.

was not the case before corbyn was elected

Yes, Jeremy Corbyn, despite being the most useless person in the world, has managed to singlehandedly causes the massive rise across the world in anti semitism, despite the fact 80% of it comes from the Right

If the leader of the Opposition is an anti-Semite and Labour supporters apparently go along with that then we have a fucking serious problem.

We have a fucking serious problem.

I have to say, I think it does Jews no good at all for Sacha Baron Cohen to be making anti-Jewish stuff like Borat. most people won't see it as satire/comedy. They will see it as true. Casual stuff like this feeds anti-Semitism. Is there anything else similar?

Watch Fiddler on the Roof. It might be a musical, but to me it illustrates much of the Jewish condition. Also, a short story by Bernard Malamud called The Jewbird. www.101bananas.com/library2/jewbird.html

I also think that Jews both within Israel and without, who criticise Israel are like 5th columnists. Just very perverse.

@Patroclus
but it doesn't come from the right. Russia et al are hardly right-wing.

Russia arnt right wing?....................... what?

Ahhh you're one of those people who havnt realised the USSR broke up arnt you?

80% of antisemitic crimes in France committed by Right wing groups, and remarkably similar percentages in Germany over the last few years