Horrified by the spread of anti-Semitism in the UK

[Nancydrawn]

I read the article today by Richard Zimler, where he says that two different UK cultural organizations turned him down for a talk because he was Jewish.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/29/ive-never-met-antisemitism-in-britain-until-now

Not because he said anything controversial, not because his politics place him at an extreme, not because he's a public supporter of anything, but merely because he's Jewish. As his publicist said, "[he] told me that the final conversations he had with the two event co-ordinators convinced him that they weren’t antisemitic themselves but they feared a backlash – protests by their members and others – if they extended an invitation to a Jewish writer."

Again, this has nothing to do with Israel. There's no political cover here. It's just because he's Jewish, and it's straight up racism, and it's fucking horrific.

I don't really have an AIBU other than to say: what the fuck?

:) daisychain and onalongsabbatical, hope you find the course useful. It’s particularly good at explaining how antisemitism differs from other forms of prejudice such as racism.

I'll let you know how it goes @AyahuascaTrip x

Abergavennie

Antizionism is antisemitism

What about Jews who disagree with Israel or the actions of Israel- is that anti semitisn? Can you discriminate against a group you are a part of or is it a faction

I’m not trying to goad, I want to understand, I feel really strangely about this. It’s so close to myself and my family but something I have been so blind and privileged to

@Abergavennie

exactly correct. It's not a matter of conflating jewish-ness and Israel. The two are inextricably linked, and so are anti-Israel sentiments and anti-semitism.

anti-Semitism in many western countries never really went away, did it?

I think society as a whole is becoming increasingly intolerant to different faiths, cultures and backgrounds. The Overton window has shifted to the point where some feel it is normal to air hate views.

However, I also think social justice warriors with their claims that any view they dislike should be banned, suppressed and speakers they don't like should be no-platforms also make the situation worse. I'd rather hear someone share awfully hate filled views in a public way and for them to be challenged robustly than have the current situation where there's a lot of no platforming which only furthers the cause of those with hateful views and gains them more supporters.

I also do think that there is a lot of deliberate misrepresentation of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. A few months ago on the radio there was a report on a questionnaire done used to argue that almost all the British population was antisemitic. When I went online to look, some of the questions were about people's views of the Israeli state, whether the Israeli state has more right than Palestinians etc. I think it suits some agendas to deliberate present the two as the same because it's convenient to say 'you challenge the Israeli state therefore you deny our right to exist as jews' when actually that's not the case at all.

I do not agree that anti zionism and anti semitism are the same thing. I do think anti zionism is often a way people express their anti semitism though.

I do not agree that anti zionism and anti semitism are the same thing. I do think anti zionism is often a way people express their anti semitism though.

100% right. All anti Semites are anti Zionists, but not all anti Zionists are anti Semites.

What about Jews who disagree with Israel or the actions of Israel- is that anti semitisn? Can you discriminate against a group you are a part of or is it a faction

@Isbrexitoveryet

Firstly, I don’t think you understand what anti-Zionism is.

Disagreeing with the actions of the Israeli government is not anti-Zionism. Anti-Zionism is opposing the right of Jews to self-determination in the indigenous Jewish homeland.

Many Jews do oppose the actions of the Israeli government, but that doesn’t make them anti-Zionists. The vast majority of Jews in this country are Zionists (aka they support the right of Israel to exist).

Regarding whether members of an ethnic or racial group can be racist against that group, of course they can. Just one example - Kanye West is black. But his comments about slavery being a ‘choice’ were highly racist towards black Americans. The existence of some anti-Zionist Jews (a minuscule minority) doesn’t change the fact that anti-Zionism is antisemitism.

I do not agree that anti zionism and anti semitism are the same thing. I do think anti zionism is often a way people express their anti semitism though

Do the people who describe themselves as anti-Zionists oppose the existence of all ethnic and religious nation-states, or do they solely oppose the right to exist of the world’s only Jewish state?

@abergavannie That is a pretty eurocentric belief. There are a number of countries not recognised as a state by some other countries, some of which are fighting for their existence. Somaliland, Abkhazia, North Korea, etc.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_limited_recognition

Personally I love Andrea Dworkin's writings about Israel.

@jennymanara

Can you read? My question was whether the people who describe themselves as antizionists oppose the existence of all ethnic and religious states.

In what universe does your response have any relevance to my point?

@abergavennie why the snark?

How do I know is my answer to that? I don't know what everyone who opposes Israel think about other states.

*Disagreeing with the actions of the Israeli government is not anti-Zionism. Anti-Zionism is opposing the right of Jews to self-determination in the indigenous Jewish homeland.

Many Jews do oppose the actions of the Israeli government, but that doesn’t make them anti-Zionists. The vast majority of Jews in this country are Zionists (aka they support the right of Israel to exist).*

This x100. There are very very few British Jews who are anti Zionist, I’ve never met any. There are many British Jews who are anti the actions of the current Israeli government. Given the anti semitism in Britain and the ridiculous trump administration meaning emigration to the US is less attractive, even the most indifferent British Jew is starting to see that Israel might be the only long term option for them and their families.

There are in the NW of England a small pocket of Jews who are staunchly against the nation state of Israel and any other state that displaces others to exist regardless if it is a holy promised land or not. But they are my family and family friends and I’m starting to wonder if because that’s the narrative I have always known, it’s really skewing me? I have been brought up by people who said, “holy land or not, god tells us to love thy neighbor, forcing ourselves on an area we vacated many moons ago for a plethora of reasons is not ok, people should be able to live in isreal but not at the expense of those already there.”

I’m starting to really question things - I don’t know.
Thanks for bringing up this conundrum for me.

Religion is a pain in the arse isn't it

It’s so fucking widespread it’s horrendous.

DH is Jewish. At a dinner party we mentioned his parents holiday home (context of where we are going on holiday this year)

Later in the conversation his Jewishness came up. “Oh that explains the holiday home then!” Jesus Christ

They concluded that these sentiments were always there but now people are more entitled to voice them.

^ this x100.

I just find it utterly bizarre. Who gives a fuck about anyone else’s religion? I do think it’s becoming increasingly widespread and it’s frightening. I’d never encountered anti-semitism IRL until a couple of months ago when walking my dog and stopped to chat to a guy with a couple of dogs. He wanted to know where I was from (outside Boston) which led to a tale about his son emigrating to the US and ending up in Sleepy Hollow, NY, but it has a large Jewish community so he couldn’t stay there. I just thought, WTF???? I said something like, “why not?” and he said, “well, you know.” I said, “no, I don’t” and walked off. It was utterly surreal- who the fuck thinks like that and why?

The amount of times I've had to explain that I'm not wealthy despite being Jewish is embarrassing.

This country needs more education and less Corbyn. The Labour party is a state.

Albus as in "his parents have a holiday home because they are Jewish or therefore rich"? Because that's shocking

Anti-semitism is very often expressed in highly coded ways that aren’t necessarily immediately obvious to onlookers who are not already familiar with anti-Semitic tropes. I have discussed this a lot with a Jewish friend, comparing that prejudice with the generally cruder and more blunt bigotry aimed at black people like me.

Read Umberto Eco’s “The Prague Cemetery”. Not the most entertaining novel, but all the anti-Semitic material in the book is real, taken from pamphlets and other stuff published in the 19th century. It is blood-curdling stuff. The title itself is a reference to the hoax document “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, which purports to report a meeting between two Jewish conspirators meeting in a Prague cemetery to plot the secret takeover of the world.

I was genuinely perplexed when the news started reporting constantly about antisemitism in the Labour party because I didn't realise there was such a huge intolerance now. I know the background to the first and second world wars and how Jewish people fit into that. But naively I thought things were miles better. So it begs belief that this issue has become an issue and that it seems to be growing, or at least that it's becoming more noticeable. This is really sad.

@Xiaoxiong exactly that. I asked him if that’s what he meant. And he looked sheepish and said yes!

I can't really get upset about stereotypes which just assumes you are rich. Surely that's not the worst of it xiao?