Aibu to ask the collective wisdom of MN to help me understand & accept?

[Tryingtrying]

Hi,
My baby was delivered by planned csection 6 weeks ago, 21 days before her due date, due to breach position and other factors measuring low growth. The csection went fine, all ok, skin-to-skin immediately, she breastfed twice that day well. However, she was low birthweight and needed sugar level pinprick blood tests from her heel every 3hrs for the first few days.
Then it all went very, very downhill.
She lost over 10% of her weight, wasn't latching at all. Would rarely latch then pull off, screaming with hunger. rarely she would feed at the breast for some minutes, then scream with hunger again. My nipples became cracked and bleeding. I had hours of pain, daily one to one help with latching, different breastfeeding positions, troubleshooting.
We collected Colostrum with midwife help with a syringe and fed her with that; eventually after 3 days the baby was needing 25ml per 3hrs of food... I was expressing 3-5ml by hand and the hospital double pump. It wasn't enough.
We moved to supplementing with formula due to her starving and left hospital a week later using a nipple shield. My milk moved from golden colostrum to whiter... But volumes didn't increase. At all.
I've tried lots of skin to skin, eventually ditched the nipple shield, supplementing with goats rue, brewer yeast, and fenugreek from week 2. My Dr prescribed domperidone for weeks 2 and 3. I eat porridge oats for breakfast; my husband makes batches of flapjack for us daily. For 2 weeks I did a "reset" - doing nothing but breastfeeding and pumping, to the point I was doing zero care for her.. just feeding her (too little) and on the pump so many times every day.
All have had zero effect on milk volume.
6 weeks later I still get about 3ml from left breast pumping, about 10ml from the right.
My baby is still mostly on formula, which is heartbreaking.
My Dr has checked my thyroid levels exactly at week 6 on Monday, all ok (rang today to give results). He requested checking the prolactin level, "relatively high". No known hormone issues, family history no known issues, female family members exclusively breastfeeding children well. Fit and healthy before, during and after pregnancy, not taking ANY medication. No contraception interfering here (not on any).
One thing I've noticed is it takes a LONG time for milk to appear when pumping - over 5 mins on right breast, over 20 on the left!
Breast compression and hot flannels help a tiny amount. My breasts don't get hard, or feel full or uncomfortable if I skip multiple feeds. Relaxing, looking at pics of baby or her being next to me have no effect.
I'm ready to accept I cannot breastfeed my baby much after 6 weeks of aggressive trying, to my and our detriment, it's harmed my bonding properly.
Short of a miracle suggestion on here, can anyone comment or advise, with all the breastfeeding knowledge this group has? My Dr and midwives and specialists just now tell me to accept some is better than none, and "it may have been because she was early, or the csection"... but I'm utterly at a loss because I can't understand.. I wasn't expecting that some women cannot breastfeed.. just that if I keep troubleshooting then surely some fix can be found!!

Sorry for lack of paragraphs, something wrong on my phone and I'm not able to figure out how to fix it.

Could she have a tongue tie? I'm asking because it seems a lot of times goes unnoticed.

Hi! I really feel for you. I went through the same thing and beat myself up over it. I tried fenugreek (didn’t help me but some people swear by it, and a drug from the doctor which is supposed to help, it didn’t.). I went to all the breastfeeding support groups and did a lot of research. I had a breast feeding support person come to my house every day. (She was lovely). My baby continued to lose weight, became jaundice, would not latch on and after a while he just became really sleepy all the time. Eventually someone said to me, ‘you know, some women just don’t have enough milk ducts’
My breast never grew in pregnancy, never got any bigger after I gave birth. I don’t know if it’s true, that I don’t have enough milk ducts, it sounds unlikely, but I kinda took it as permission to give up. My mental health suffered so badly and I was a complete mess. Up every two hours to express and nothing came out but a few drips.
I gave my baby formula. He got better almost instantly. It was the right thing for us.

I don't have any magic words for you - I breastfed 2 of mine easily and the middle one I weaned early as it was affecting my bond with her too (also had to pump which I hated). All are fine.

But I wanted to say you have been utterly heroic getting to 6 weeks as you describe and she has had significant benefit from the breastmilk she did get. If it were me, I'd go on to formula and enjoy my baby. Next time it could all work out just fine for you.

Thank you all. The baby doesn't have tongue tie, I don't think - has been checked by midwives in hospital, and at home, plus I asked in a breastfeeding support group for it when we demonstrated feeding. I've managed to ditch the nipple shield now and latching is not painful any more... But the supply takes ages to appear in the shield, and even expressing by hand is slow (drips here and there)... It's like my supply never"came in" tbh!

My mental health suffered so badly and I was a complete mess

I identify with this so much.. I didn't realize some women can't breastfeed.. or at least that's how it's been.. I just can't understand how all the specialists and supporters and reading about this has resulted in a shrug .. no one has any clue about what's happened, and it's such a stressful & depressing situation.

Some women can’t BF. It’s rarely admitted or talked about.
I spent four months with my first doing EVERYTHING to promote supply. I pumped, did skin to skin, fed on demand (all the bloody time!), consulted experts re latch, took pills, drank special tea. I felt like crap and still he lost weight.
My boobs don’t work. It’s nothing I did. There was nothing else I could try. Most women can BF. I can’t.
Tried again with my second. It gave up after about three days. Much happier. And she grew and thrived and I enjoyed her and relaxed.

We weren't much good at breastfeeding, to the point that my son and I were readmitted to hospital after 4 weeks EBM, and when I tried again to go for EBM at 11weeks he began to lose weight once more. I could never pump much at all, it would take me 20 minutes to cover the bottom of a bottle. Very few women have no milk at all, but I do think some of us only produce enough to keep a baby alive, not necessarily thriving and contented. It sounds as if you may be wanting to move on - when I did I felt like I'd done most of what I could. It's OK to stop, or to mix feed, or whatever you would like to do. It's OK.

My friend was like this. She beat herself up then and still does. She feels she 'starved her baby' who cried for the first 6 weeks solidly.

I bf exclusively baby 1. Baby 2 was a 29 weeker and my supply wasn't the same. She wasn't putting on weight so they supplemented with high cal formula then eventually I was asked by Dr to stop bf altogether to try 100% formula.

Being a parent means we constantly feel guilt. 9 years later I still feel guilt daily about all sorts.

Let it go. In a couple of months/years time it won't matter.

Congratulations on your baby DD

I couldn't produce enough milk. One DS had six weeks then formula. The other had 12 weeks. I was a little bit sad, but it can't be helped.

Physiologically the use of formula supplements in early postnatal period prevent the natural feedback mechanism working efficiently.
Most breast fed babies lose some weight but yours was small to start with so at higher risk of low blood sugar.
If lots of different staff were giving conflicting latching advice then you were never going to be able to relax and just sort it between you and the baby. It probably made it harder rather than easier.
Expressing isn’t necessarily indicative of your ability to produce adequate milk. Some women can express easily others can’t but can still feed their babies perfectly well. I could never get much by pumping but fed fairly easily once the cracked nipple stage had passed.
I would suggest you might almost be trying too hard. It needs to be a relaxed process for you both - easier said than done sometimes. Does your local NCT have a breastfeeding advisor? Many do and a practical, local expert can really help.
If not, try a warm bath together before taking to your bed for a long slow feed and cuddle. It’s still early days and everything else can wait. Don’t get worked up about quantities and volumes. Don’t fret about the time it takes. Just wallow together in a warm comfortable bed and get to understand each other better.

some women just cant breast feed but the media,midwives hospitals dont tell you that and try and make our formula is doing harm

ive 2 kids and ive not produced 1 drop of breast milk,during pregnancy or after

i tried with my youngest for 3 hours and numerous midwives tried milking me manually(that sound awful writing that) ,i produced nothing apparently its to do with having severe PCOS and not having the hormone(ive never had a period either)

baby sucked down 11oz straight away and contunied this every hour and half (he was 9.10 born)

you have tried your best,the baby must be hungry

@Tryingtrying

First of all, well done for doing all you've done so far! Jeeze you've really worked hard.

I wouldn't batter yourself over this, I would suggest if you don't want to stop breast feeding to continue breastfeeding and then follow with bottle formula straight after so you know she's putting weight on. You're then still getting the closeness but you don't have to be panicked about her weight.

Putting all the aside, she's been passed all her goodness in the colostrum, it wouldn't be bad if you just bottle fed now.

Also remember you can never express the same about that your baby would draw out, it just doesn't work that well.

I had a boob that gave enough milk and one that didn't. No idea why.

This happened with my second child, and was really shocking to me as with my first baby it was all so easy. Last baby was almost textbook straightforward. Not with my second though. It was almost exactly as you describe. The stress of the first few weeks I wish I could take back and change, I really do. Honestly, I gave up and moved him onto bottles, but wish I’d done it sooner. The sadness of finally ditching the pump, and fully embracing bottles, only lasted a few days, which was so much better than doing the continuous and obsessive pumping. I believe that breast is ideal if it works, but fed is best. Fed is best. Repeat in your head, fed is best. You’ve tried everything you can and it’s making you and probably your baby very stressed. Fed is best.

I EBF my DS and I couldn't pump at all. It hurt and took about 90 mins to get less than an ounce. I decided that it was completely pointless. But the actual feeding was fine, DS managed far better than the pump. I never had full breasts or leaking or any of that and he grew and put on weight. I couldn't squeeze so much as a drop out myself with my hand either.

In any case what you've been doing sounds hellish. I'm no expert but I don't think it's good for either of you to continue like you are. She needs her mother to be ok. Whatever someone said upthread about breastfeed for a while for the closeness and whatever goodness she might get and then top up with a bottle sounds good to me. You can't carry on the way you are.

I managed to breastfeed and they gained weight but nothing happened with the pump.

Be proud that you got this far. You really have tried your best. Now be sensible and take the pressure off yourself. You'll both be happier by relaxing and accepting that breastfeeding isn't the best thing now, given your particular circumstances. Don't beat yourself up.

Gosh, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone working harder to try and establish breast feeding with their baby OP - I honestly don't think there is anything more you could have done/could do, you should be hugely proud of your efforts (I bet DH is!), you should never beat yourself up if you choose to stop now/at any point.

I have a friend who tried all sorts to enable her DS to BF, but she didn't have enough breast tissue (I think this might be what a PP was talking about when they said they hadn't had enough milk ducts, perhaps?) so her supply started off very low and unfortunately never picked up, in spite of her huge efforts.

If I were you, I think I may well have given up before now, especially in the fog of PND misery after DD2's birth. When my DDs were tiny (they're now 10 & 12), Midwifes constantly told us new Mums that "Breast is best, but if you can only do 3 or 4 feeds over the first day or two, then that can make all the difference" and there was an awful lot of focus on the benefits of colostrum - which you have ensured your DD received!

These days, I prefer the newer "Fed is best" and I think that with so many pressures on new Mums, facing anything (like judgement or forcing different opinions onto you) other than total support for our choices - after all, what every Mum wants is a happy, healthy child, so everyone should trust that Mums are making decisions with this in mind - is worse than just 'unhelpful', and can, infact, lead to causing unnecessary stress and detracting from this incredibly special time in your little family.

Congratulations on your new DD @Tryingtrying, give yourself permission to do what you feel is best for you and your DD, knowing that any decision you make will be in both of your best interests - the most important focus there is at this special time.

Thank you all, if only to hear that I'm not alone in this experience.. all the other sources of help (drs, midwives in hospital, community midwives, health visitors, bf peer workers, the bf support group I go to. Online) just kept hammering home the idea that there is no real thing as "can't breastfeed". Only I haven't tried the right thing yet. That's why I've been so aggressive until the six week check and the lightbulb moment my GP said "it's ok, some women just can't".

Hearing that, and the stories you've offered here.. I think I needed to hear all this 4or 5 weeks ago

I'll keep expressing and offering the boob for 10ml/comfort and leave it at that now.

Bloody Hell OP, I’m so sorry that this was your experience
I am very pro BF if that’s the mother’s choice but in some cases surely somebody should say just stop and FF instead
I FF from choice but I know of several women who were made to feel that wasn’t an option and they went through weeks or even months of hell before they “gave in” and used a bottle and formula.
I actually found a lady sobbing in the baby food aisle of Sainsbury’s once as she was having an awful time and when she had questioned her MW about formula was told “I can’t give you any advice on that “
I also drove for an hour to my SILs house with a 6 week old baby of my own to help her sort out how to FF her underweight baby after her MW wouldn’t help
Obviously it’s best to BF and every support should be given to women to do that but if somebody doesn’t want to do that or finds it so hard it impacts their ability to enjoy/bond with their baby then there should be advice and support to do that as well.

Thing is, I should have been more specific here so future readers know what it's been like.. I've pretty much been hooked up to the pump for 5-6 hrs a day, pumping "minimum" of 12 times, sitting sobbing while she screams at 2 and 3am for an hour prior to a feed to get another 5ml into her before a formula top up..
I'm looking back at the last 6 weeks really regretting buying into the "you just haven't tried the right trick / there MUST be a solution to fix it" idea

Ironically posting this as my baby is cuddled up feeding with no pressure on me for the first time in her life to hurry up & get on pump!!

I see Stacy Solomon on Instagram doing similar to you. Growing a baby and delivering it is an achievement, bf is a bonus. You’re a great mom, don’t be so hard on yourself.

Fed is best

Unfortunately there is definitely a message put there that if youre not able to breastfeed, it's because you haven't tried hard enough. I see it over and over again on mumsnet as well - that 'a tiny minority cant' but there never seems to be an acceptance that whoever is posting is in that minority. (Obviously this has not happened on this thread.)

There is no sane person in the world that could say you haven't given it your all!! Sometimes it just doesn't work. It didn't work for us, and it took me a while to accept that. Honestly, switching to formula was the best thing I ever did, for my baby's health, and for my mental health! it went from both of us sobbing every 2-3 hours, him continuing to lose weight etc. to us just being and bonding. When and if you're ready to call it a day, switch to formula, hold your head high and enjoy your beautiful baby.

We had the same situation and eventually my husband said I was just putting me and the baby under so much stress trying to make it work. Stopping was the best thing I did and I have an indescribable bond with my son. I'm pregnant now and I'll try to breast feed but if my body won't do it again then I'm not going to give myself a hard time. You and this baby are forever, this is a short time in that.

Well done for trying so incredibly hard; but also well done for recognising that it may be time to move on.

Perhaps think about it this way - if everyone "could" feed their babies if only they tried, why would anyone have ever developed formula milks? Historically some babies went to wet nurses if their mothers couldn't feed them - not just "wouldn't" or "weren't available".

Enjoy your baby!

I think one of the problems you’re having is that you are getting yourself upset and into a state about a number of things (baby not putting on weight, you’re ability to produce milk, and being told different things by different healthcare professionals). One thing is to remember baby’s are more effective at transferring milk from your breast than pumping can so don’t be disappointed with the amount you get when you pump.

The problem is anxiety and stress causes hormones (adrenaline and cortisol) to inhibit the hormone oxytocin which is responsible for the breastfeeding let down reflex which happens when the baby suckles at the breast. Nerve cells in your breasts send a signal to your brain to release oxytocin. The oxytocin causes the muscles around the milk-making glands in your breast to contract. When the glands contract, they squeeze the breast milk into the milk ducts. The milk ducts also contract to push the breast milk through your breast, and out of the nipple to your baby. Suckling also stimulates the hormone prolactin which is responsible for milk production to be produced at the same time as oxytocin, so if oxytocin is inhibited prolactin will also be inhibited and your milk supply will be effected.

I think what has happened in your case is that as you had to introduce formula and had problems with attachment in the early days it significantly effected your milk supply, breastfeeding especially in the first few weeks is pretty much constant (every 2-3 hours usually so you’d need to pump the same frequency for about 20 minutes if baby missed a breast feed to try and mimic this) and if you’ve had to introduce formula, breast milk isn’t effectively being transferred from your breast and your supply is subsequently effected, that’s why pumping and introducing formula isn’t recommended until your supply is established. Also baby is probably getting confused (being breastfed, having a bottle then a breast shield ect) and you’re upset and dreading a feed ect, baby is upset it’s a viscous circle.

Take a step back and be kinder to yourself, try and understand that it’s not your fault this has happened it was circumstances at the time. If this hadn’t happened breastfeeding probably would have worked out for you (it can take a while to get to grips with it, you’ve not done it before and baby hasn’t either).

I think in your circumstances it’s probably better for your mental health to stop trying, or to either ditch the pumping and try bf with a formula top up (if there’s still issues with weight), or to just pump and and formula feed.

Please please be kinder to yourself, honestly it’s circumstances and different advice that you’ve received as to why this has happened. Baby had a good start and had colostrum and that in itself is a very good thing.