Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should men be allowed to "opt out" of parenthood?

999 replies

Jemimapuddleduckpancake · 20/06/2019 09:08

My friend has a child who was ultimately the result of a very casual, friends with benefits type situation. The father was immediately sure that he didn't want a baby and told her from the very beginning. He wasn't around and didn't help out for the first couple of years, but has now decided that he wants to have access to the child and start to build a relationship now he is older.

My friend doesn't trust him, doesn't like him, and is deeply hurt over all the things she has had to go through alone because of his previous lack of involvement and support. But she's worried that she is totally unable to prevent him from ever having access, and feels that he has put her in a horrible and stressful situation.

Which led us to think about this.

When a woman falls pregnant from a one night stand or casual-sex type scenario, she can choose whether to keep the baby, or go through an abortion or out the baby up for adoption. Thus ultimately "opting out" of parenthood.

A man in the same situation has no such right to opt out of parenthood. He has to accept the woman's decision and his life will be impacted by the woman's decision.

My friend believes that she was unrealistic during pregnancy. She firmly believed that the dad would "come round", that he'd see the baby and suddenly fall in love and want to be involved. But of course this didn't happen.

So we started to discuss, what if there was the option for a man to "opt out" of parenthood? It would, of course, have to be done very early on - before the baby was 1 month old, for example. Her idea is that this could be done by signing a legal document stating that he has no desire to be a part of the child's life in any way, will not ever be able to seek any type of access, and will not pay money. This move would have to be irreversible in order to be taken seriously. (Perhaps there could be some terms and conditions like the situation can be reversed but only with the mother's permission).

Now, i know a lot of women on Mumsnet like to say that if a man doesn't want a child then he shouldn't have sex or should use contraception. But I believe in total equality between the sexes and feel that this is unfair. Two people choose to have sex, two people choose whether or not to use contraception, but only one person can decide whether or not they will keep a child if an accident does happen.

I know so many people whose lives are made miserable by constantly battling men for money for their child, or by trying to encourage contact between their child and a man who just isn't interested.

Don't get me wrong - I think this is awful. But wouldn't it save the mother and the child both significant stress and heartache if they can live their lives without these battles? Surely knowing where you stand from the very start will stop all the disappointment and the emotional rollercoaster and stress that so many people experience.

And is it fair for a women to force a child (or the responsibilities that come from having a child, like maintainance) onto a man who knows immediately that he doesn't want a child?

My friend says that with hindsight, she just don't see how this current situation benefits anyone. Men can easily belittle women by claiming that they were "tricked" into having a baby. If there was this "opt out" system, they wouldn't be able to argue this!

The mother also wouldn't have to worry about a deadbeat dad who hasn't done anything for her/her child suddenly popping up deciding they now want to be in the child's life.

My friend says that looking back, although it seems harsh, knowing that this "opt out" system existed would his would actually have helped her. She'd have been much more prepared for single parenthood, much more prepared for being financially responsible for the baby by herself. She'd have been able to prepare better and not have the crushing blows and disappointment and feelings of rejection that come from his behaviour. She'd also not have to now worry about granting a man who is (now) a virtual stranger access to her child.

She thinks that if a man doesn't sign this before baby is month old, then he can't sign it at all, and will be fully responsible for the child in terms is maintainance and anything else, which should then be more strictly implemented (harsher punishments for not paying, for example).

(I thought maybe it would be better if the deadline for opting out was before baby's birth, but she says she still believes that some men will see their child at the birth and fall in love and therefore be given the chance to be involved.)

Of course there would have to be some regulations like if a women can prove that a baby was discussed or planned then the man can't opt out, for example.

What do the rest of you think? I'm really curious about this. On the one hand yes, if you don't want a baby then use contraception. But on the other hand, accidents happen and I can't help but agree with my friend that men should be allowed to opt out just as women can.

At first I thought this was a crazy idea but the more I think about it, the more I think it could help. The UK could issue MUCH stricter punishments to men who don't pay (because if they haven't opted out then they have no right at all, and no excuses, like they make now). It would in many ways protect the mother and child too.

Thoughts, anyone?

(Please don't kill me, I'm just curious to hear ideas from all sides, I'm not fully persuaded! Not that what I think really matters - and it won't happen anyway. But would it be better or worse for people if it did?)

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 11:02

Oh Decomposing, you are lucky I have nothing better to do this morning! Here you go:

Your quote: I want men and women held to the same standards.

My questions: Do you really? Are you arguing to close the gender pay gap? Are you pushing for 50/50 custody for men and women in the result of a separation? Are you doing as much as you can to rebalance the number of men and women CEOs in the FTSE100? Or is it just this particular point, when a man can’t snap his fingers and get exactly what he wants that you have an issue with?

BrainFart · 21/06/2019 11:03

@Pumperthepumper

I don't assume anything. The number of women who do the "give birth, minimum mat leave then back to 18 hour days" is staggeringly small compared to the number of men who never take mat leave and are happy to do 18 hour days. I only know one such woman, a partner in the law firm I used to work at in Paris (IT boy, not a lawyer). Literally left the office on a Friday, we got the email she'd given birth on the Sunday morning, and was back at her desk maybe two weeks later at absolute most. One of two female partners out of 12 in the office.

The vast majority of the other female lawyers I saw in my decade there (who were always a majority at the associate level) either went off to have children and never returned to dedicated legal practice, or went to a less stressful job that allowed them more flexibility with their kids. Leaving the minority of male associates unencumbered by maternity / pregnancy to perpetuate a majority of male partners. It wasn't because the system was structurally against women, it's because the women I saw witnessed what was required to become a partner and prioritised other things in their life.

MirriVan · 21/06/2019 11:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 11:08

It wasn't because the system was structurally against women, it's because the women I saw witnessed what was required to become a partner and prioritised other things in their life.

Why don’t men prioritise other things too then? Unless you’re seriously suggesting that biology means that women love their children more than men do?

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 11:14

Should men opt out early in pregnancy - I think this is an interesting idea that should be looked at

Whereas I think this a pile of misogynistic bile.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 11:18

But this most recent derailment into all the things wrong with the court system, PR, child maintenance etc. is a waste of time. It’s smoke and mirrors, designed to shore up a weak argument.

CanILeavenowplease · 21/06/2019 11:21

Set up a fair system. Don't let women exclude dads. Ensure that opportunities to parent are equal. Don't give all the rights to one parent and then complain that the other parent doesn't step up

And how does that work with babies? All the psychology says they need to be attached to their primary care giver. We advocate breast feeding as 'best' for babies. If a baby is born to separated parents (and this happened to me), what then? What is best for the baby does not necessarily mean what is fair for the parents, perhaps? I would have loved him to have had to take on half the sleepless nights. But the reality is the baby was breastfed so it wasn't possible. Should the father have had the right to say that the baby couldn't be breast fed? Should he have demanded his right to 50/50 at the expense of the baby's long-term mental health? Should a father be able to demand that a mother spends hours hooked up to a breast pump just so he can have his 50/50 - bearing in mind that can (and does) interfere with milk production?

Parenting should be about the needs of the children. Not some percieved 'rights' on the basis that shared care is 'fair'. It isn't. Not for small children and frequently not for older ones either.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 11:21

Do you really? Are you arguing to close the gender pay gap? Are you pushing for 50/50 custody for men and women in the result of a separation? Are you doing as much as you can to rebalance the number of men and women CEOs in the FTSE100? Or is it just this particular point, when a man can’t snap his fingers and get exactly what he wants that you have an issue with?

50/50 custody - absolutely. Give men equal benefits to support cut in working hours, equal housing if necessary to facilitate this.

Gender pay gap - more likely to be reduced when men have 50 /50 custody and women return to workforce.

CEOs in FTSE 100 - I really doubt that has any impact on the ability for most men to parent their children. Very few men are FTSE100 directors either are they? So this is not at all relevant to what we are discussing. Of course if women want to do this then they should. I presume men who achieve it have sacrificed a lot to get there so if women want to make those sacrifices then good luck to them.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 11:25

CanILeavenowplease

See, this is the problem isn't it? I don't see how you can exclude the dad for months and then complain that they aren't bonded.

How many women actually breastfeed? Of those that do how many are still doing it at 6 weeks, 12 weeks, 4 months or longer? Not many.

I breast fed for 3 and a half years. Does that mean my dd couldn't be with her dad for that length of time?

If the mum is breastfeeding and can't let dad gave the baby alone then she has to allow him to see the child while she is there.

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 11:26

50/50 custody - absolutely. Give men equal benefits to support cut in working hours, equal housing if necessary to facilitate this.

Gender pay gap - more likely to be reduced when men have 50 /50 custody and women return to workforce.

That’s hilarious! Men aren’t doing this and it’s STILL women’s fault. What an absolutely cushy number we have, don’t we? How brilliant it is to be a woman with all these choices and all that money. If only we could make fathers give a shit about their children, we’d rule the world.

BrainFart · 21/06/2019 11:34

Why don’t men prioritise other things too then? Unless you’re seriously suggesting that biology means that women love their children more than men do?

I don't know. I would imagine men place more value on, or derive more joy from, career success and the trappings that go with it. Maybe because it helps them attract women, maybe because they enjoy "beating" others in business ? It's down to each individual case.

But, neither the men nor the women in this case, as far as I'm aware, were forced to prioritise work / kids. They made informed choices as adults as to how they wanted to spend their time. And the upshot of it was that an office which was 70% female 30% male at associate level became 85% male and 15% female at partner level. All without anybody being discriminated against. Everybody got to do what they wanted to do.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 11:41

That isn’t true. What has been explained to you - many times - is why the absence of a right to terminate does not confer a right to opt out. Many times

But it's both opting out of parenting , you just don't seem to be able to see that or explain why it should only be a woman who has that right.

You just keep bringing it back to a man shouldn't have the right to a say in termination (which we both agree on) nor she had have a right to opt out but can't explain why a woman should and a man can't ?
Other than it her body, which we aren't disputing he would have no effect on her body ?

So you argument is redundant as its arguing a completely different issue with no answer. I have shown on ever occasion why your arguments are different to the question being asked

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 11:42

That’s hilarious! Men aren’t doing this and it’s STILL women’s fault. What an absolutely cushy number we have, don’t we? How brilliant it is to be a woman with all these choices and all that money. If only we could make fathers give a shit about their children, we’d rule the world.

What do you want then?

You don't want men to have 50/50 care - then you can moan that men leave it to women.

You want men to do 50/50 care but don't want them to get state benefits so that they can afford to do this.

If a dad can't afford housing without claiming benefits then overnight stays are blocked so again everyone can moan about dead beat dads.

Is that what you want?

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 11:42

Why should dads not qualify for as much state help as mum's do, as long as they are doing 50/50 of parenting?

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 11:46

But it's both opting out of parenting , you just don't seem to be able to see that or explain why it should only be a woman who has that right.

Because it is only the woman whose life is risked in pregnancy and birth. I can’t make it simpler for you.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 11:47

Say a woman gives birth but decides she doesn't want the responsibility. The father wants to keep the child, and so gets custody. Should the woman be free from responsibility of paying for the upkeep of that child?

This would be deciding after the fact though, so no.

If they were to discuss it first and she agreed not to abort their child and he have full custody once here, then yes that would be an agreement before the fact. He could adopt full custody of the child

Frequency · 21/06/2019 11:48

You just keep bringing it back to a man shouldn't have the right to a say in termination (which we both agree on) nor she had have a right to opt out but can't explain why a woman should and a man can't?

But it has been explained to you several times. Once the woman decides to go ahead with the pregnancy the rights of the parent are secondary to the rights of the child. The child has the right to be supported by both parents and the right not to live in poverty.

That is why the man's choice ends at conception. 1) Because he cannot force a woman to undergo a medical procedure with al the mental and physical risk that entails and 2) because the child has rights.

A man does not and should have the right to force a child to live in poverty. The child always comes first.

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 11:48

And the upshot of it was that an office which was 70% female 30% male at associate level became 85% male and 15% female at partner level. All without anybody being discriminated against. Everybody got to do what they wanted to do.

Haha of course they did! Surely then, if you think it’s biology that makes women unable to climb the career ladder after children, we should be forcing a change to make that more equal? Like holding CEO positions for maternity leave or automatically giving priority to women returning to work after leave for childcare? If women WANT to be CEOs but it’s their biology that’s stopping them, then surely (for equality) we should be making sure that they can by making men take a step back?

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 11:49

Because it is only the woman whose life is risked in pregnancy and birth. I can’t make it simpler for you

Yes and she still has the decision of wether to go through it or not .... I can't make that any simpler that nothing is taken away from her ?

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 11:51

Is that what you want?

No. I want you to appreciate that the reason men don’t get this is not the fault of women. I want you to admit that women hold very, very few cards when it comes to deadbeat dads, and that’s the fault of the deadbeat dads not the mothers. But you won’t, because you seem to be under this impression that single mothers have an absolutely brilliant time in their free house with their free money and the men who fathered their children are just hapless victims.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 11:53

1) Because he cannot force a woman to undergo a medical procedure with al the mental and physical risk that entails

Again no one has disputed that, I have agreed with that a million times. The decision is still hers.

The thing that changes is his rights.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 11:53

Yes and she still has the decision of wether to go through it or not .... I can't make that any simpler that nothing is taken away from her ?

But I have told why she has that right and why he doesn’t. They are not equal. Why should they have equal rights?

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 11:58

2) because the child has rights.

Yes and in the hypothetical scenario the opt out would have to be done before the termination deadline. So the rights of the child have not changed either.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 11:59

No. I want you to appreciate that the reason men don’t get this is not the fault of women. I want you to admit that women hold very, very few cards when it comes to deadbeat dads, and that’s the fault of the deadbeat dads not the mothers. But you won’t, because you seem to be under this impression that single mothers have an absolutely brilliant time in their free house with their free money and the men who fathered their children are just hapless victims.

Nope, don't think that at all.

Put men in an equal situation. Then if they don't step up slate them all that you want.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 12:02

There was a thread the other day.

Dad lived in an HMO so mum not happy for children to go there.

So, if dad had social housing that barrier would be removed. What is wrong with that?

Swipe left for the next trending thread