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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Should men be allowed to "opt out" of parenthood?

999 replies

Jemimapuddleduckpancake · 20/06/2019 09:08

My friend has a child who was ultimately the result of a very casual, friends with benefits type situation. The father was immediately sure that he didn't want a baby and told her from the very beginning. He wasn't around and didn't help out for the first couple of years, but has now decided that he wants to have access to the child and start to build a relationship now he is older.

My friend doesn't trust him, doesn't like him, and is deeply hurt over all the things she has had to go through alone because of his previous lack of involvement and support. But she's worried that she is totally unable to prevent him from ever having access, and feels that he has put her in a horrible and stressful situation.

Which led us to think about this.

When a woman falls pregnant from a one night stand or casual-sex type scenario, she can choose whether to keep the baby, or go through an abortion or out the baby up for adoption. Thus ultimately "opting out" of parenthood.

A man in the same situation has no such right to opt out of parenthood. He has to accept the woman's decision and his life will be impacted by the woman's decision.

My friend believes that she was unrealistic during pregnancy. She firmly believed that the dad would "come round", that he'd see the baby and suddenly fall in love and want to be involved. But of course this didn't happen.

So we started to discuss, what if there was the option for a man to "opt out" of parenthood? It would, of course, have to be done very early on - before the baby was 1 month old, for example. Her idea is that this could be done by signing a legal document stating that he has no desire to be a part of the child's life in any way, will not ever be able to seek any type of access, and will not pay money. This move would have to be irreversible in order to be taken seriously. (Perhaps there could be some terms and conditions like the situation can be reversed but only with the mother's permission).

Now, i know a lot of women on Mumsnet like to say that if a man doesn't want a child then he shouldn't have sex or should use contraception. But I believe in total equality between the sexes and feel that this is unfair. Two people choose to have sex, two people choose whether or not to use contraception, but only one person can decide whether or not they will keep a child if an accident does happen.

I know so many people whose lives are made miserable by constantly battling men for money for their child, or by trying to encourage contact between their child and a man who just isn't interested.

Don't get me wrong - I think this is awful. But wouldn't it save the mother and the child both significant stress and heartache if they can live their lives without these battles? Surely knowing where you stand from the very start will stop all the disappointment and the emotional rollercoaster and stress that so many people experience.

And is it fair for a women to force a child (or the responsibilities that come from having a child, like maintainance) onto a man who knows immediately that he doesn't want a child?

My friend says that with hindsight, she just don't see how this current situation benefits anyone. Men can easily belittle women by claiming that they were "tricked" into having a baby. If there was this "opt out" system, they wouldn't be able to argue this!

The mother also wouldn't have to worry about a deadbeat dad who hasn't done anything for her/her child suddenly popping up deciding they now want to be in the child's life.

My friend says that looking back, although it seems harsh, knowing that this "opt out" system existed would his would actually have helped her. She'd have been much more prepared for single parenthood, much more prepared for being financially responsible for the baby by herself. She'd have been able to prepare better and not have the crushing blows and disappointment and feelings of rejection that come from his behaviour. She'd also not have to now worry about granting a man who is (now) a virtual stranger access to her child.

She thinks that if a man doesn't sign this before baby is month old, then he can't sign it at all, and will be fully responsible for the child in terms is maintainance and anything else, which should then be more strictly implemented (harsher punishments for not paying, for example).

(I thought maybe it would be better if the deadline for opting out was before baby's birth, but she says she still believes that some men will see their child at the birth and fall in love and therefore be given the chance to be involved.)

Of course there would have to be some regulations like if a women can prove that a baby was discussed or planned then the man can't opt out, for example.

What do the rest of you think? I'm really curious about this. On the one hand yes, if you don't want a baby then use contraception. But on the other hand, accidents happen and I can't help but agree with my friend that men should be allowed to opt out just as women can.

At first I thought this was a crazy idea but the more I think about it, the more I think it could help. The UK could issue MUCH stricter punishments to men who don't pay (because if they haven't opted out then they have no right at all, and no excuses, like they make now). It would in many ways protect the mother and child too.

Thoughts, anyone?

(Please don't kill me, I'm just curious to hear ideas from all sides, I'm not fully persuaded! Not that what I think really matters - and it won't happen anyway. But would it be better or worse for people if it did?)

OP posts:
laurG · 21/06/2019 07:23

I think it is very sad that people think that a woman can just easily opt out of parenthood. Adoption and abortion are not easy options. You don’t book an abortion like it’s a haircut. For some women it’s fine but for others it is very painful. Adoption means carrying a child for nine months, surviving all of the physical and mental effects of pregnancy and birth then the trauma of giving it away. I know I couldn’t do that. If a woman doesn’t want to abort or adopt then why should she be the only one who’s life has to change?

I think it is so sad that women here are assuming that accidental pregnancy is really the woman ‘trapping the man’. That is so misogynistic. Yes, there are a few that do this but don’t tar everyone in the same boat. If a man doesn’t want to be ‘trapped’ then he can wrap it up! Then if she gets pregnant it is a genuine accident that both should assume responsibility for.

So you are not comparing like with like. A woman terminating or adopting out a baby has to deal with possibly life long consequences. She doesn’t carry on regardless.

Wittsendargh · 21/06/2019 07:23

My 2nd child was the result of a one night stand 🙈. The father was very upfront at the beginning and said he didn't want any involvement in the child's life (I was 17 weeks on when I found out).

After she was born DNA was carried out, and at that point I received a solicitors letter to say he wanted to relinquish his parental rights. I was already a single mum who had spent years battling with the CSA for payments from her dad, I couldn't face that again. So I agreed.

In court I came across the fathers mum, who was utterly heartbroken over the situation but said she had to "respect her sons wishes". The judge wasn't at all pleased with the father, but passed the severance as I agreed to it.

That was 8 years ago. He isn't allowed to contact her until she is 18. Even then I doubt he will because he isn't on her birth certificate and in the eyes of the law, he isn't her dad.

So...you can opt out. It's the consequences of that you have to consider - no financial support and a child who has absolutely no knowledge/input from her fathers side.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 07:24

@herculepoirot2

But why? I don’t want a termination. I want a baby. Man made a decision to risk creating one. How does the natural outcome - his child - become my sole responsibility just because he is a fucking idiot who couldn’t think past the end of his dick

So does that mean women that get pregnant by accident are also fucking idiots who could see past the inside of their vagina ?

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:25

And again....women have another option. There’s no need (unless abortion isn’t possible for you) to abstain. I could have unprotected sex tonight and go have the MAP tomorrow. Why would I need to abstain? Men can’t. If pregnancy is a disaster then they have to consider it.

Because many women think they would have an abortion, until they are pregnant or simply don't think about it. Then, once pregnant, reality kicks in and they realise that they can't afford a child or don't want to co parent with the man etc.

What you are also saying though is that any man who doesn't want to be a dad needs to abstain from sex as it's the only way that he can guarantee it. So women need to accept that. That for a large part of their relationship sex will be off the table.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:28

So does that mean women that get pregnant by accident are also fucking idiots who could see past the inside of their vagina ?

It might.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:29

So does that mean women that get pregnant by accident are also fucking idiots who could see past the inside of their vagina ?

But to be clear, I am talking about people grown adults who a) know they don’t want a child and b) don’t use contraception and c) want to leave the child to be raised by someone else.

That’s pretty stupid, whether you are a man or a woman.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:30

laurG
But surely if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant then she uses contraception and refuses to have sex unless he also wears a condom? What are the odds of pregnancy using 2 forms of contraception?

Why are you painting women as some hapless victim? We are equally responsible for making sure that an unwanted child isn't conceived.

JacquesHammer · 21/06/2019 07:31

So women need to accept that

Well. Anyone needs to accept that anyone can choose not to have sex for any reason. Anyone can also decide that a sexless relationship isn’t for them.

Both those things are 100% acceptable and a choice for either sex.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 07:33

Yes. And I will - if I choose to not to ‘clean up his mess’ just to save him trouble

Yes, so its both your messes as you have acknowledged, so you would not be cleaning up his mess.

You would be left holding the baby, if you chose to get pregnant and chose to continue with the pregnancy once he had chosen to utilise his right to "opt out" within the (hypothetical) legal timeframes.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 07:36

But why? I don’t want a termination. I want a baby. Man made a decision to risk creating one. How does the natural outcome - his child - become my sole responsibility just because he is a fucking idiot who couldn’t think past the end of his dick

So does that mean women that get pregnant by accident are also fucking idiots who could see past the inside of their vagina ?

it might

So it's only might when it's a woman, you are quite adamant when it's a man 😂😂

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:37

You would be left holding the baby, if you chose to get pregnant and chose to continue with the pregnancy once he had chosen to utilise his right to "opt out" within the (hypothetical) legal timeframes.

But why should I clean up his half of the mess? He created a child. It’s his. I am not obligated to get rid of it because he wants me to. Why should it then be my problem rather than his? Because I didn’t have an abortion? That is precisely the same thing as suggesting I have a moral obligation to terminate a baby a man created that he doesn’t want. No, I don’t.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:38

Wittsendargh

But you are also responsible for that situation too surely? Presumably you chose to have sex with this man, knowing that pregnancy was a risk? Did you know what his views were on children, being a dad, how involved he would want to be, his views on raising children?

Why did you agree to him severing his parental rights? Had you refused what would have happened? Had he not done that would you be prepared for him to see the child regularly and have his input in every decision?

What is he had opposing views to you on how to raise the child, which he might have? Would you rather he clashed with you over every decision - what school she goes to, where you live, where you go on holiday etc?

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:38

So it's only might when it's a woman, you are quite adamant when it's a man 😂😂

No. Read my second post on the subject.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:41

This whole thread absolutely reeks with male entitlement. The view that women are responsible EITHER for terminating OR for raising the child alone completely ignores the central point: the man knowingly risked the pregnancy by depositing his sperm voluntarily inside a woman. But because he doesn’t have the right to abort the child (which is only because the child can’t kill him) women are assuming some sort of sole responsibility by not intervening in the natural process of reproduction.

What do these stupid blokes think their penis is for?

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:43

But why should I clean up his half of the mess?

Because that's the risk that you accept when deciding to sleep with a fuckwit or with a man you don't know well?

If you don't want to be left, literally, holding the baby don't sleep with an idiot who won't use a condom, or who is a waste of space, or who you don't know well.

Even if he steps up your views on everything might be polar opposites yet by your actions you are trying your life to his for the next 18 years.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:45

Because that's the risk that you accept when deciding to sleep with a fuckwit or with a man you don't know well?

No, it isn’t. I risked creating a baby who would be one half my problem, one half his. He risked the same. Why should I take responsibility for his half of the problem?

Pumperthepumper · 21/06/2019 07:50

I risked creating a baby who would be one half my problem, one half his. He risked the same. Why should I take responsibility for his half of the problem?

This is the question I’d love to see answered. Is anyone going to be brave enough to say ‘because he didn’t want to , and what a man wants is much, much more important than anything else, including the needs of the tiny human he created’?

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:51

No, it isn’t. I risked creating a baby who would be one half my problem, one half his. He risked the same. Why should I take responsibility for his half of the problem?

Because you agreed to have sex with someone. You took the risk of getting pregnant and of possibly getting pregnant with a man who is an idiot or who has entirely different views on parenting as you.

Basically, be more picky over who you sleep with.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:53

And why are the supporters of this ridiculous idea ignoring the unfairness already inherent in reproduction? If we are all so obsessed with making things equal, why aren’t we strapping two stone of aggregates to men and pumping them full of hormones for ten months? Why aren’t we slicing them open? Why aren’t we simulating labour pains? After all, it’s about things being the “same”.

Oh yes, because that would be FUCKING STUPID.

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:53

Basically, be more picky over who you sleep with.

But only I need to be more picky? Because...?

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 07:56

and what a man wants is much, much more important than anything else, including the needs of the tiny human he created’?

Nope he isn't, nor is the mum and what she wants more important than the child.

What if the man steps up. He pays child support and wants to be an involved dad but the mum now realises he isn't someone that she wants a relationship with? No reason apart from she just doesn't like him. He has very different views on raising children and life in general. That's just tough right? She has a responsibility to allow a relationship between parent and child so now just has to live with the consequences of her choice and accept that this man is in their lives for the next 18 years and do nothing to jeopardise that father/child relationship right?

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 07:57

What if the man steps up. He pays child support and wants to be an involved dad but the mum now realises he isn't someone that she wants a relationship with? No reason apart from she just doesn't like him. He has very different views on raising children and life in general. That's just tough right? She has a responsibility to allow a relationship between parent and child so now just has to live with the consequences of her choice and accept that this man is in their lives for the next 18 years and do nothing to jeopardise that father/child relationship right?

With no other reason than that she just doesn’t like him, that is obviously ridiculous.

DecomposingComposers · 21/06/2019 08:00

But only I need to be more picky? Because...?

Because if you choose to have a child with a man then you are responsible for that choice.

If we are all so obsessed with making things equal, why aren’t we strapping two stone of aggregates to men and pumping them full of hormones for ten months? Why aren’t we slicing them open? Why aren’t we simulating labour pains? After all, it’s about things being the “same”.

Because it's women that get pregnant. If you don't want to go through pregnancy and childbirth then make sure you don't get pregnant. Apparently, it's very simple. Use contraception. If that is still too risky then abstain. Then you don't have to have 2 stone strapped to you for 10 months or be sliced open.

It's a choice.

bourbonbiccy · 21/06/2019 08:01

But why should I clean up his half of the mess? He created a child. It’s his. I am not obligated to get rid of it because he wants me to.

No in no way should you be obliged to terminate, but you have the right to, the same as you have the right to terminate a baby that is his half his, even if he wants it, as it is your body.

You would be dealing with your own situation, you could terminate or go on to have the child without his support, if you chose to in the situation you allowed yourself to get into.

Why should it then be my problem rather than his?

It shouldn't be a problem though, you chose to put yourself at risk as did he. You can choose to opt out so why can't he. If it's a "problem" to you, it's a problem of your own making that you have a choice to continue with or not

Because I didn’t have an abortion? That is precisely the same thing as suggesting I have a moral obligation to terminate a baby a man created that he doesn’t want. No, I don’t.

It is absolutely not the same as saying you have a moral obligation to terminate. You can continue with the pregnancy that you chose to happen or not.

It is saying you would both have rights to opt out of parenting. Why should it only be a woman ?
And it's nothing to do with bodies as the woman would still have the only choice on that, it the right to be a parent or not after conception

herculepoirot2 · 21/06/2019 08:02

Because if you choose to have a child with a man then you are responsible for that choice.

But only in your imaginary world. In the actual world, you are legally responsible and can be held legally responsible. You are trying to convince me otherwise, so your argument for why can’t be that you have already won. You haven’t.