Any HR advice please? Urgent.

[BipolarSunset]

Hiya,

I have a disciplinary at work on Friday due to sickness. 9 days for chickenpox, 5 days for a miscarriage and then 1.5 days for when my son was ill.

The only thing I want to know is whether I can be disciplined for the chickenpox? For further information I work in a GP surgery so it's detrimental that I wasn't in work when contagious.

P.S. I already know they can't include the miscarriage - planning to mention this during my meeting.

Thanks in advance!

Jeez there is some dreadful advice on here (and some good). What a minefield for anyone trying to seek useful pointers.

You need a copy of your own sickness absence policy, plus any policy on time off for dependents. This will tell you what your employer is using as a framework. You could also look at the ACAS guidance as your own employer policies should use that at least as a guide.

The sickness policy should explain any trigger points and stages in any absence management process. It’s usually an escalating process ie you start at the bottom and only move through a series of stages if your attendance doesn’t improve or worsens over an agreed period of time.

Pregnancy related absence, including miscarriage, should be excluded. Any other sickness absence, whether with a doctors note or not, can be included. It is not unlawful, or discriminatory, to manage sickness absence so long as it’s fairly done. Even if it’s disability related (although in practice a reasonable adjustment might be to discount it or allow more time off for that reason). Employers can set their own guidance on what they deem a reasonable level of absence.

Good luck and try and get hold of your policies.

Can you remember what you claimed when your Son was sick?

As PP have said it should have been emergency dependants leave which you are entitled to, though not necessarily as paid leave.

If you claimed it as sick leave then it's potentially an issue as you were not sick and so not entitled to sick pay.

In all honesty, it is more likely to be a formal meeting to emphasise good attendance and suggest that you try really hard not to get chickenpox again ?

Chickenpox is horrendous when you're older....DD got it at 10 and was dreadful!

A previous employer always had a disciplinary meeting if you had 3 separate absences. I had one, was really nervous, they asked if they could help and as I had the cold I said not really. As my % was still above 97% they didn't "discipline" me. Had I been disciplined it would have meant not being allowed to move departments for 6 months it wasn't very serious.

I think employers believe it helps keep skivers in line, but is very unfair on genuinely ill and creates bad feeling.

I have RTFT but I still cant tell if they are aware the miscarriage was a mc or not? I know OP will tell them (again?) in the meeting, so I wonder if this will be a non subject then, as it's chicken pox, with a note, mc which can't count and very little else.

supersara really? A score of 27 is common in the private sector?

I'm not disagreeing with you, because I genuinely don't know what happens outside of the nhs, but I can't imagine hauling someone into the office for say, three single days off in a whole year!

”Unless the chickenpox and the amount of sick leave you are allowed to take in one year is specified in your contract, they are not allowed to discipline you. It’s unlawful and discriminatory.” Complete nonsense. Obviously if they are using Bradford Factor they should specify what trigger points there are, but even if they do proceed to disciplinary, it’s certainly not the case that they are not “allowed” to if trigger points aren’t specified. And how do you feel it would be discriminatory? Do you think chicken pox is a disability?

”If you were signed sick by a DR in your practice, request a reason for HR’s meeting? The only thing they can include, lawfully, outside contract terms, are unqualified sickness.” Please provide a link to which piece of legislation or case law you are referring to which prevents employers from disciplining for certified sickness absence? I assume since you are giving legal advice you have in depth knowledge of the legal position?

”Plus if they are not paying you whilst sick, you don’t have to ansa [sic] any questions as you were not paid( contracted) under any lawful means!”

Again please point to the legislation or case law which indicates that an employee doesn’t have to answer questions about absence unless they are being paid for it?

This is why I despair when people decide to post employment law questions on AIBU when there is a perfectly good employment topic.

You need to request a copy of their sickness and disciplinary policy, they still need to have one even if they are not part of the NHS.
You should also have a letter clearly outlining the reason and purpose for the 'disciplinary' meeting.
The policy (whatever it is) should be applied consistently to all staff, they can't single you out to make and example of you. Maybe other staff have been warned, but it's a confidential process so you wouldn't necessarily know.
Its more likely a first stage meeting to discuss your attendance, so they can see how they can help you not be sick anymore and tell you they will be monitoring you for a period, just to help you not get sick anymore.

Id use the meeting to put them straight about the time off for your son and the miscarriage. Goodluck

OP, it sounds like some of your stress is arising from not being sure what type of 'meeting' it is.

You need to ask your manager to clarify beforehand what the nature of the meeting is. If it is a disciplinary, you should have been explicitly told this.

Considering the risk you posed to unvaccinated pregnant women and newborn babies at the time, I'd suggest they should consider what the implications would have been legally financially for them had you come into work and passed it on to a whole load of vulnerable patients.

I wouldn't worry it sounds like they're just following procedure. I think they'll see your sick notes etc and nothing will happen.

Flowery, completely agree some of the 'advice' is very unhelpful.

Your contract will not specify which illnesses are and which are not allowed.

The policy will say something like " 3 occasions of sickness in a 12 month period or a Bradford score above ** may result in disciplinary action being taken."

In the meeting clarify the reasons for absence and ensure that everything is correctly recorded, establish the purpose and intent of the meeting.

To anyone of the opinion that doctors notes are like a guaranteed pass, that is not the case. In all likelihood yes, a Drs note will legitimise the absence and in this set of absences described by the OP I would be surprised if anything comes of it.

However it is possible for an employer to discipline and terminate employment even if there are Dr notes, if someone is off sick a lot then it would be possible to establish they are not capable of fulfilling the role. This is the case even for recognised disabilities although it would be expected for this to be a long process with occ health involvement and adjustments on the part of the employer.

Its shit that they are not an nhs employer, I don’t understand how they are allowed to get away with this

GP practices are private businesses that have a contract to provide NHS services. They are under no obligation to provide any of the benefits you would get as an NHS employee except the NHS pension.

They seem to discipline you for the most ridiculous things,
My son was disciplined for being off work when he was stabbed by a stranger
It is disgusting

@livinglavidavillanelle

Yep, 27 is not unusual for a first trigger point in my experience. And it's exactly because of the disruption that 3 x 1 day absences can cause in, for example, manufacturing where whole production lines may not be able run due to absence.

Generally, exceeding 27 would result in a 'counselling' type interview to understand whether there were underlying issues causing frequent absences. And possibly an improvement plan, depending on circumstances, rather than full-on disciplinary action at that point.

On a separate note (not aimed at you, @living)... Organisations' processes and procedures around absence vary so hugely that it's impossible to know what rules might be in place with OP's. So it's surprising that so many people in this thread seem so confident in stating what OP's employer can and can't do (outside of things like pregnancy related absences).

At the end of the day the contract of employment is an agreement that the employee will be available for work. The contract sets out what the employer will offer and what the employee will do.

If an employee is unable to work the reasons usually are:

Sickness absence
Annual leave
Unpaid leave
Mat/Pat/Adoption Leave
Patental Leave
Strike (in a unionised environment).

There shd be policies behind all these.

I am sorry you are having a difficult time op.

Hopefully the meeting will be supportive and consultative. FWIW in similar situations there are issues around healthy lifestyles, boosting the immune system and support in the context of counselling and apps such as headspace that could all be discussed and offered. Miscarriage is distressing. I soldiered on. I shouldn't have done and that experience informs my practice 25 years on. Nevertheless, three weeks absence is high even if entirely justified and it does merit a supportive conversation. Not everybody is genuine and the organisation has to be transparent and equitable if it is to deal successfully with those who are problematic.