AIBU about school imposing new sanctions?

[BumbleBeef30]

Today DC came home and said they had assemblies today in which they were told about new sanctions for issues such as having your shirt untucked or missing equipment, e.g. a purple pen.

I don’t mind it when a school has a sudden outbreak of enforcing uniform issues or ensuring all children have the right equipment using the original sanctions because, no matter how silly I may think it is to give a child a detention at break for a missing pen, those are the rules which were on the home-school agreement and I signed up to it.

I didn’t sign up to these new sanctions, which seem overly harsh and likely to punish only those children whose parents can not afford to replace items which break or go missing unexpectedly.

An occurrence of missing a pen now gets you sent to detention for three lessons; two occurrences get you isolation for three lessons; three occurrences get you sent to isolation for a whole day; and four occurrences earn you a fixed term exclusion. Theoretically a child could go to school on Monday without a pen and be excluded by Wednesday.

Before anyone says, I know pens are cheap and fairly easy to replace, but some people are forced to live hand to mouth at the moment, and the same new sanctions apply if you don’t have exactly the right type of shoes. Whereas before it might be a phone call to parents reminding them that shoes need to be lace-up, now it’s an immediate detention followed by isolation.

What’s more is that the school hasn’t sent home any information to parents, apart from an email containing the letter they give all new Year 7s about the standards they expect. No mention of sanctions at all - just a basic “we want every child to succeed and because of this we expect skirts to be knee length, all students to have the correct equipment, etc”.

AIBU to wonder what the fuck is going on at that school? Can schools just change sanctions whenever they feel like it? And should they be introducing these new, much harsher sanctions without letting parents know about them?

Dicipline is in and of itself not a worthy educational goal.

Discipline isn’t a goal of education. Learning how to behave is, though, and that can take discipline. It doesn’t always. Some children never need to be told because their core values are good. Others need help to learn how to behave.

I think YABU. As a teacher my priority and my job is to teach my class. It's extremely frustrating when the same disorganised students lose their pens and in every class we have to waste valuable class time finding them a new one. I also think that okay, maybe there are a FEW families who can't afford a pen. But considering you can buy a pen for a few pennies, this is definitely the minority. The majority of the time it's disorganisation - forgetting or losing it - and it's not fair that the 28 or so organised students who are waiting to get on with their work have to waste their class time while the same kids are trying to borrow pens from their classmates. It's obviously a real problem or they wouldn't have imposed these sanctions.

Some people flouncing around on this thread feels they have all the answers - when actually they have none.

And people wonder why mental health problems in teens are increasing to point where Cahms waiting lists are over a year in some areas...
Or why home education is on the rise.

Just glad to see skirts are set at reasonable length! Most rules should be simple and enforced, uniform rules, no nail polish etc. They're not difficult rules but some parents seem unable to enforce any rules now.

The pen thing seems a bit far-fetched though (and I doubt would be actually enforced in practice).

My son has SEN and I have to micromanage and organise everything for school. I pack his bag each day making sure he has everything, PE kit, homework, books etc. If I didn't he would always be getting @lines' and 5 in a week is a two hour after school detention.
I know he can't do it himself, some may say he will never learn but if he got into bother it would result in school refusal
I do agree that there has to be a minimum standard but also beleive in carrots over sticks

People saying teens are having mental health problems because of some simple school rules are massively over-reacting.

We had all these rules when I was at school. Very simple ones. Mind you, we didn't have flouncy and arrogant teens and their parents questioning authority every 2 seconds.

Remember, a lot of this is not accidental and not about 'educating' children. Government in the UK is becoming more and more authoritarian and punitive, because that's what the unelected wealthy 1% want (and think they can obtain) - a population of frightened, compliant serfs who know their place and don't question their 'betters'.
Training people to jump through pointless hoops or face rapidly-escalating 'sanctions' is on the increase: punish kids for having not-quite-the-right-shade-of-grey trousers, ignore any reasons they put forward and just keep increasing the punishments is similar to the DWP strategy of depriving poor people of more and more of their money for things like not having been able to get through to their office on the phone (while of course, ignoring the vast sums of money lost to corporate tax evasion.)

This sounds like a sensible head with the right balance - rules are there to support the running of a school and Enable students to develop respect. Not ridiculous poweplays and hysterical rules.

One HT I worked with had quite serious punishments for breaking the rules, but the rules were simple - bring a pen (any pen), look decent in a white shirt or polo and black trousers or skirt and treat your teachers and classmates with respect. It was the best behaved school I ever worked in. The rules were simple, sanctions were clear and consistent (and consistency is a big issue in lots of schools) and there wasn’t hours of the day lost dealing with purple pens and debating if hair dos are extreme or not.

herculepoirot2 Mon 17-Jun-19 20:49:38
I’d much rather the SLT concentrated on stabilising the drift of teachers than on missing pens.

How do you suggest they do that without making sure the kids have pens? Pens are not just pens. They are symptomatic of disengagement and low standards. Get them bringing pens and you have a better chance of getting them to do some work.

I'd imagine the reasons the teachers are leaving are down to the management/crab coming down from above, rather than the kids.

BumbleBeef30 Mon 17-Jun-19 20:52:05
Isolation consists of isolation booths where students face the wall and have no way of knowing if there are any other students around unless they lean back to look outside their booths - which would incur further punishment.

How are schools prioritising money to build shit like this when they are supposedly too skint to provide books?

Crab? crap!

This thread is ridiculous.

To get back to the original point. I think sanctioning if the student doesn't have a PURPLE pen is a bit tedious. I would enforce the sanction if the student had no writing device at all

The amount of time that gets wasted in a lesson ensuring everyone has the correct equipment is ridiculous. That's valuable time that could be spent helping students education on a 1-1 basis within the classroom. Instead I'm faffing around trying to hunt down pens, pencils, rulers etc. Its a joke

In regards to isolation, no it is not torture and to be frank, it is laughable and embarrassing that people are suggesting it. At worst case scenario, students work in complete silence in a little booth- surrounded by other students. I have never come across a school where it is demanded that the student sits up straight the entire time. Best case- it's students dossing off lessons for a day and having a chat with their mates.

Students with abuse history would get sent to student support/whatever system the school has in place. I have worked in several schools, and not once have I ever seen a student that is seriously involved in safeguarding get sent to isolation- they get sent to student support instead.

Just glad to see skirts are set at reasonable length! Most rules should be simple and enforced, uniform rules, no nail polish etc. They're not difficult rules but some parents seem unable to enforce any rules now

Or, you get schools who work with the students.

DD's school uniform IS a short skirt (or trousers as a choice). They also suggest they won't mind about nail varnish as long as it is a natural colour. Make up to be natural.

Much the same as the school I went to!

I'm all for school rules- I went to a school that was like the wild bloody west and it was hell for kids who behaved like me- but some are so target driven it's made them go OTT.

My DD is in year 7, I have a stockpile of stationary and supplies. Yet since September, she has had her entire pencil case pinched during /after PE where she went to her next lesson and got had a go at and a uniform demerit because someone stole it. She has had her blazer pinched and her notebook too. And we're not talking her leaving things lying about for people to pinch.

If her school got as militant as OPs, she would be in isolation by Wednesday at least several times a term due to theft, which she is not at fault for.

Kids do need discipline, but not being treated like robots or the army.

I'd imagine the reasons the teachers are leaving are down to the management/crab coming down from above, rather than the kids.

Ultimately, I agree. But the problems will be manifesting in behaviour.

It seems odd that people think these kinds of draconian harsh sanctions are in any way preparing people for work (and they are people even though they are young).

It seems far more likely to me that they will either be pushed to a point of utter numb unthinking silence, or to a point of "I'll never be in a powerless place where people tell me what to do ever again" where the option of just mugging someone or stealing when you need money is far more appealing than being "trapped" in a real job.

When did we stop thinking that learning should be enjoyable, productive and inspire creativity and pride in achievement? Trapping someone in a useless empty place for a day is robbing them of a day of education, its kafkaesque punishment of wasting a day of life to no gain to anyone. When they go back they'll be further behind, making it even more likely that they'll misbehave again, sending them back out to miss another day.... how is that preparing them for the society we say we want?

Having a specific colour pen, fully branded uniform, wearing blazers when it’s 30 degree weather... aren’t exactly simple though are they? They are pointless. Having a pen (any colour) and uniform (supermarket polos, trousers etc) are simple rules that can be followed. Having added pressures to follow these kind of rules DOES lead to stress and anxiety. Add on all the usual school stuff with friends, bullying, workload... and it’s just another thing that contributes to bad mental health.

Also, some of you completely fail to see that there is a difference between rules/laws and 'good values'. Refusal to comply with laws that are in conflict with your values is the strategy that has brought about pretty much all human progress, whether that's helping slaves escape their owners or fighting to extend the right to vote to all adults rather than those with the 'superior' genitals or skintone - or peaceful civil disobedience from enough people that the law being disobeyed becomes completely unworkable.

When did we stop thinking that learning should be enjoyable, productive and inspire creativity and pride in achievement? Trapping someone in a useless empty place for a day is robbing them of a day of education, its kafkaesque punishment of wasting a day of life to no gain to anyone. When they go back they'll be further behind, making it even more likely that they'll misbehave again, sending them back out to miss another day.... how is that preparing them for the society we say we want?

Or, it is removing the problem so that everyone else can find learning inspiring and enjoyable, instead of having to wait for the twentieth time that day while the teacher gives out pens?

Sounds good

She was regaularly referred too as an “old fashioned” head, but it worked.

Purple pens are just such a symptom of the stupidity that teachers and pupils are faced with now. It’s an awkward item to source easily and cheaply (and not all schools sell pens for 10p as was said earlier) which makes it more likely that a child won’t have it - be that because they have shit parents or because they themselves don’t care - which means it’s more likely a teachers will have to deal with that (whilst possibly thinking it’s stupid themselves that They’re having to deal with Billy when Billy has a pencil case full of black and blue pens) wasting everyone’s time.

And I firmly believe that once you get into the realms of rules that teachers think is stupid it causes problems.

@MsMaisel I am offended that you are judging all teachers and tarring us all with the same brush based on what you have seen written on a thread on a bloody online mum's forum!!

The amount of money and work being invested into mental health in most schools these days is incredible. Students now have the safe space and appropriately trained members of staff to go to and vent to when life is getting on top of them.

Students can be taught in separate rooms if they cannot cope with being in a classroom, safe spaces are being created for students to calm down in when they are feeling particularly stressed, and people are more aware, now than ever of mental health and/or safeguarding issues. A lot of investment is being spent on this area in a lot of schools

I'm sorry your problem wasn't picked up when you was at school. Teachers are being trained every single year on safeguarding and how to spot even the tiniest of hints that something might be off with a student.

All we can do is continue to raise awareness and continue to be trained on such matters, which is happening in most schools up and down the country. What else do you realistically propose?

cardibach Mon 17-Jun-19 21:01:03
Requiring a purple pen at all is nonsense, fed by rubbish about ofsted and effective marking. As a teacher I wouldn’t, if there were any alternative, work in a school which required them or send my child there. They are symptomatic of all sorts of things, which this over harsh sanctions list backs up. Apart from anything else, keeping those records will be impossible so the system will collapse, taking with it children’s respect for discipline.

BumbleBeef30 Mon 17-Jun-19 21:16:24
Do you really think teachers are leaving because a couple of children don’t have the requisite colour pen?

Around here there is only one shop which sells purple pens, it closes at 4pm every weekday and regularly runs out of stock. Not having a purple pen immediately to hand is not a symptom of having no respect for education.

Someone with little concept of what our town provides decided that purple was a reasonable colour to expect parents to find here. Red would be a lot easier. At least you can buy red pens in the tiny supermarket we have as well as the general store.

Why do they need purple pens?

Writing with these in general work was actively discouraged when I was at school.