to think they can't sack a whole department?

[WhereForArtThouBray]

I work for a large company which is split into smaller companies. some of these companies deals with a particular aspect of the business, for example Plant procurement, Pensions, Fleet.

One of the companies/departments had a whistle blowing complaint made and whilst HR were investigating they uncovered lots of other things that were wrong.

The Managing Director and the Manager were both suspended whilst the investigation was ongoing and it has come to a point now where all of the staff members have been charged for Gross Misconduct and will be facing disciplinary proceedings with the group solicitor.

The misdemeanors are different in each case, some theft from the company for using company assets for their own benefit, some tax evasion and other things. The wrong doings were widely known about and accepted as a perk of working in that dept/company.

Surely HR can't dismiss an entire dept/company of staff in one fell swoop?

I am not implicated or involved, it doesn't affect me at all but these are colleagues I have worked with for a very long time so I am of course worried about them.

Why can’t they? Don’t se any reason this couldn’t happen. They could re staff with temps, and managers from other parts of the wider company. Or just outsource to another company.

If HR have a solid case for gross misconduct against all of them then I’d presume that HR would be able to dismiss them all for gross misconduct.

I can see it would probably be awkward from an operational point of view to have to replace them all at once, but HR and the company senior management may well feel that dealing with some short term disruption is preferable to allowing employees who’ve been participating in gross misconduct to remain.

Not quite the same but I once worked at a(big University) hospital and came in I've day to discover the whole post roon/team had been fired. Again dodgy dealings. Staff from other sites were drafted in temporarily until replacements hired.

So, in theory yes they can

On the contrary, they absolutely should sack them all. IT can provide new passwords and they can hire people who won't steal; usually an interim service can be provided by contractors or a consultancy while they rebuild the team, or they might take the opportunity to outsource that service.

Surely HR can't dismiss an entire dept/company of staff in one fell swoop?

Yes they can - you gave the reson -

it has come to a point now where all of the staff members have been charged for Gross Misconduct and will be facing disciplinary proceedings with the group solicitor.

To actaully charge people there must have been a substantial enquiry.

The wrong doings were widely known about and accepted as a perk of working in that dept/company.

I'd not voice that opinion out loud - or you will be seen as complicit in fraud.

I should think they would have to sack them all other wise they would open themselves up to unfair dismissal cases if they aren't consistent across all members of staff

If the junior staff were doing these things with knowledge and approval of their managers then they may be able to challenge their dismissal.

I am suprised that they can all be sacked. I just kind of presumed that they would all get warnings as from an operational point of view the show must go on.

The managers did know about the goings on but have issued statements saying they knew nothing. These things have been going on 20 years in some cases.

I just kind of presumed that they would all get warnings as from an operational point of view the show must go on.

I've fired people and had to work significant overtime, because firing them was the right thing to do. Besides, the short term difficulty of firing bad employees is almost always outweighed by having a better staff as a result later.

Operational reasons is a shitty, grubby reason to keep the kind of people you describe in their roles.

Of course they can. In fact MUST... or they themselves become as complicit as the managers!

Out they all go and, after a few months of more fact finding and restructuring to avoid a repeat the show will go on!

I honestly don't think the actual staff are bad people, they took advantage of various perks with the knowledge of their managers. I imagine it kind of like macdonalds staff being allowed to take the left over burgers home at the end of the night or something?

The managers have denied all knowledge now though and it had backfired on the staff.

No I think it's more like McDonald's staff assuming they can help themselves without actually checking the employee handbook...

Gross misconduct is a big deal, I'm surprised anyone would be so blasé as to think "Oh well, the show must go on"! If they've actually begun disciplinary proceedings then it seems to me they must be pretty confident.

I realise you're not involved but I'd be very careful about voicing any view that might suggest you think what went on was acceptable. Somethings gone badly wrong in that company and now that senior management are aware you can be guaranteed they're going to trawl through all the other departments to check if anything untoward is going on elsewhere. You can expect work to be a bit difficult over the next few months and there might even be further shocks in store. I'd recommend keeping your head down!

If you personally are enjoying any perks not in the company rulebook,
without the signature of a manager with authority to sign
then STOP

Oh I am definitely head down and mouth shut. I love my job and wouldn't want to jepodise it in any way.

The investigation has been conducted, it went on for a few weeks during which time the top two staff were suspended.

I am coming across as Blasé but I do understand its such a big deal, I just thought from a business point of view it wouldn't make sense to get rid of literally the entire staff. I couldn't even imagine how it would work building it back up again.

I've known an entire (small) department be fired for nothing more than 'business reasons'. Misconduct would definitely do it.

This though: "The managers did know about the goings on but have issued statements saying they knew nothing. These things have been going on 20 years in some cases."

That is typical of management and it is absolutely sick that lower paid staff are made to take the fall for something that could and should have been fixed a long time ago. I hope someone has the courage, sense, and physical capability - not to reliant on and panicking about getting another job in other words - to ensure that the management goes down with them. It's this kind of corruption that makes Britain such a shit place to live in.

I am definitely not enjoying any perks, authorised or otherwise. It was just the employees of that particular dept.

The managers did know about the goings on but have issued statements saying they knew nothing.

Quelle surprise!

How can you compare tax evasion to a cheeseburger?

Yes, of course they can fire them all

The thing is from a business point of view how can they not get rid of staff who have proven untrustworthy? It's a massive headache but it's really not a case of having to keep them, that would be insane! They will likely do a combination of restructuring, transfers from elsewhere in the company, taking on (likely headhunting) new staff, temp staff and outsourcing. It will probably cost them a fortune, they may lose business and if it gets out their reputation will take a hammering.

It happened where i work. The majority of the dept were suspended and they all either got new jobs or resigned whilst investigations were ongoing, or dismissed. It must have been at least 30 or so people. Lots of unethical activity to achieve targets. It was a cultural thing and i dont think a lot of them even realised they were doing anything wrong. The company brought in an external company to do the investigations. Not a nice time.

They will hire consultants and move forward.

I imagine it kind of like macdonalds staff being allowed to take the left over burgers home at the end of the night or something? I think you'll find that if a member of a fast food unit's staff were to take the left over burgers home, he/she would be sacked for theft, and if the manager gave permission they would be in deep shit too.

How can tax evasion possibly be a perk?

They don't have to worry about reputation, they only provide services to the group of companies that they are part of. It is more of an dept but set up as a company of its own.

Well they aren't comparable at all. I just couldn't think of a simpler analogy. Not all of them have committed tax evasion, some of them have done other things but all of the charges are gross misconduct.