to think they can't sack a whole department?

[WhereForArtThouBray]

I work for a large company which is split into smaller companies. some of these companies deals with a particular aspect of the business, for example Plant procurement, Pensions, Fleet.

One of the companies/departments had a whistle blowing complaint made and whilst HR were investigating they uncovered lots of other things that were wrong.

The Managing Director and the Manager were both suspended whilst the investigation was ongoing and it has come to a point now where all of the staff members have been charged for Gross Misconduct and will be facing disciplinary proceedings with the group solicitor.

The misdemeanors are different in each case, some theft from the company for using company assets for their own benefit, some tax evasion and other things. The wrong doings were widely known about and accepted as a perk of working in that dept/company.

Surely HR can't dismiss an entire dept/company of staff in one fell swoop?

I am not implicated or involved, it doesn't affect me at all but these are colleagues I have worked with for a very long time so I am of course worried about them.

You can be jailed for tax evasion, so this is very serious!

It sounds a bit like MPs expenses scandal.

I've worked in a company where they sacked the entire sales team for falsifying expenses (they colluded with each other over it). We had no sales team for months and sales were fine which begs the question what the hell were they for

"I imagine it kind of like macdonalds staff being allowed to take the left over burgers home at the end of the night or something?"

"I also didn't know macdonalds workers weren't allowed to eat the burgers. I worked at a chip shop once and we were allowed to eat what we wanted."

It's human nature though, isn't it? If they're allowed to eat the 'leftovers', then there is an incentive to ensure that there are leftovers. So extra food may be cooked to make sure there's something for the staff, and so on.

Decades ago, my Dad delivered fruit/veg and the rule was that any boxes that were already open at the end of the week could be shared between staff. He said it was amazing how many boxes suddenly need to be opened to fulfil orders.

The tax evasion ones are very serious I totally understand that being gross misconduct. I can even see why the other misdemeanours are gross misconduct although I think it is unfair that management have tried to push it off their shoulders.

I literally just wondered if from a business point of view whether some or all of them might manage to get away with a warning rather than fire everyone. So if the fact that it is everyone could be their saving grace so to speak. - it seems not, which has suprised me, I had assumed they would all still be here after the disciplinary hearings but I have clearly assumed wrong.

The misdemeanors are different in each case, some theft from the company for using company assets for their own benefit, some tax evasion and other things. The wrong doings were widely known about and accepted as a perk of working in that dept/company

For things like this they certainly can! These are criminal activities. Dismissal is about the least they should be concerned about.

Lougle wrote:
Decades ago, my Dad delivered fruit/veg and the rule was that any boxes that were already open at the end of the week could be shared between staff. He said it was amazing how many boxes suddenly need to be opened to fulfil orders.

Similarly, a new restaurant opened up locally last year: fixed price all you could eat and drink (including bottles of beer and soft drinks).
Needless to say after a month signs went up to say that customers were no longer permitted to take away any "open bottles" when they left the premises - obviously too many chancers opening five or six bottles of beer so they could walk out with them.

People take advantage of things and good will is abused. Sad really isn't the examples given above. No good deed goes unpunished as they say.

Of course they can.
Why do u think they can't?

I just thought it would be too difficult. The dept would stop and they provide a service to the rest of the group that is relied upon on a daily basis. I just couldn't imagine them getting rid of everyone but as plenty of people have said, it happens. Obviously I have never come across a situation like this before.

So glad I am not involved or having to deal with the fall out.

They are all rotten to the core

Wow!

Of course they can, just because something is “accepted” does not mean they are breaking the terms and conditions of their employment contract.

Aren’t

Someone in my old office was disciplined for using office resources to print thousands of leaflets for her church She said she thought it was ok because her manager didn’t mind. They were both disciplined - theft doesn’t become ok because someone else let you do it, and it you can’t say “well I didn’t actually make the copies....” - you effectively let them into the bank to rob it! You have to decide for yourself, as has been said your own moral compass.

The company needs to sack them all to maintain standards in their business.

Yes, they definitely can. I think it must be quite hard for people who join a department or business where this sort of thing is endemic. You have to either leave, blow the whistle or just go with it. Not everyone will be in a position to leave and I think some people wouldn't have the confidence to challenge it and might leave their job even if they do. They shouldn't have done it but you can bet some people will be a lot more guilty than others.

Of course they can if there is justification. I've known, for example, a whole shop team to be sacked for stock theft.

It sounds as though they've all dobbed each other in.

Of course they can and they should. I have have had fire people for gross misconduct, while there manager was aware it doesn't make them less guilty.

From a business point of view, if the culture of the department is bad (and it sounds terrible) then it is probably easier to rebuild the entire department from scratch then try to turn the culture around.

And a side note on the burgers/pigswill thing... I am pretty sure this would be illegal (if the pigs are intended for meat) and rightly so from an environmental health point of view. You cannot feed livestock random waste meat products, it's even worse if it might include meat from the same animal (Eg bacon to pigs). It's a disease risk.

I am suprised that they can all be sacked. I just kind of presumed that they would all get warnings as from an operational point of view the show must go on

Look at it this way - if they keep them now, after everything they've done, effectively HR would be saying the department is untouchable. In future if anyone does something similar and they're sacked they could try to claim unfair dismissal because others got away with it. It's going to be tough getting rid of all of them, but not as tough as keeping them.

There really is nothing that cannot be outsourced to a company at short notice. Whatever they did - the department - can be replaced quickly and expensively in the short term, then post inquiry, can be reintroduced with better control. A good company will even have something like this in their risk register.

happened at my work too. in that case it was the whole IT department.
it was pretty hush hush but gossip was ripe.
was a painful few months until a functional team was trained up.

I can't think of any department where a team of well qualified contractors can't take over immediately until a team of permanent staff if put together is needed - or even offered the job.
Or of course a company is outsourced, that works too.

I know there are outsource companies available to do this particular service but I imagined it would need a hand over period and all kinds of admin and stuff.

Obviously I am nothing to do with the dept and not management so have no idea how these things work.

I guess they really can sack them all then.

Without knowing what the department do it's impossible to judge how hard it would be to replace overnight but it sounds like they deserve to be sacked athough I don't see how tax evasion is misconduct - do you mean their own personal tax or are you talking about a department responsible for working out the tax of the business?