Tantrums with 7 year old and threatening to kill herself

[nowheretorunorhide]

Not AIBU, but on other threads i'm getting no replies.

My daughter is 7 and we have been living in a refuge since March after leaving an abusive relationship and her witnessing violence towards her 3 year old brother. She's very good at school and always caring towards other children. over the last week she's started having tantrums over very silly things, which escalate to full blown melt downs very quickly. I explain my reasons with her why she's lost privileges etc, encourage breathing to calm her down, but it's getting me down a lot and her brother is now copying some of the things she says. She has told me he wishes i'm dead, i'm evil, she wants to be dead, she will kill herself, she will jump out the car etc. I told the refuge who have sorted play therapy and her school who have sorted out a therapist.

I'm not sure what to do with her when she has these meltdowns, I believe she should lose privileges, I tell her it's ok to be angry and try to get her to identify her emotions, but with the abuse and my own MH problems I don't know if i'm doing a good job helping her. I had a hard childhood and have BPD myself which I've had treatment for and manage well, but I can see she is so much like me and I don't want her to end up with BPD like myself and have years struggling with her emotions. I really want to help her through this and be the support she needs.

I had a bit of a funny upbringing, and I was this child at one point in my life. When I had meltdowns, I found that isolation and punishments were never effective, because I had no control over my emotions and releasing my anger. Anger, is a humans' primitive and natural defence. Witnessing violence as a young child (like myself) is going to heighten those primitive defences as a response to potential conflict. So in a sense, I was unable to flick the switch off. One of the things that always calmed me, were "forceful" cuddles from my mum. As much as I fought to get out of it when I was in one of my "states", my mum persisted, and kept showering me in love, cuddles and reassurances until my brain gradually began to recognise I was back in a safe place.
Hope this helps, and if you have any questions for someone who can maybe offer you a different perspective, fire away.

@getmeacupoftea I have been telling her I love her and will try the cuddles, but she doesn't want me to cuddle and will hide under her bed. It's break my heart not being able to help her through this.

You poor thing, and your poor daughter. No wonder you are both so stressed and traumatised. I wish I had some words of wisdom, that could help you, but I don't.

One thing though, your daughter does sound very much in crisis. I'm not sure that punishing her for her behaviour when she is in such distress is going to improve matters, because it does sound like she has very little control over her behaviour, and so much stress and trauma with few tools or ways with which to express or deal with it.

Hopefully the therapist might be able to help with that. . .

Are you being persistent? Tell her you won't leave until she comes out from her bed, or gives you a cuddle. Don't go away when she tells you too. That's what worked for me anyway

@mbosnz I don't want her to think it's ok to have a meltdown to get what she wants and I want her to know her actions and behaviours have consequences good and bad, which I've explained to her. It also seems mean to me to punish her when she's going through a hard time and it's her emotions she can't control. Things can kick off over her having a bath, changing her knickers or not having her ipad. She needs boundaries, but I don't want to make matters worse. It's so hard.

So long as she's not getting what she wants, then that is the main thing. It's terribly hard, I imagine not helped by your living situation. I hope so much things get better for you all soon.

Do you think she's perhaps trying to exert a little control in a world where everything seems out of her control? Does giving her choices help - like do you want your bath before or after tea? Do you want to wear your blue knickers or your orange knickers? And the ipad is a privilege that she can earn by not having a meltdown, that perhaps you can remind her of, if you see one on the horizon?

If she doesn't want a cuddle it's wrong to force it, you would be crowding her. Don't make her get out of bed either, it's her space. She needs a safe place on her own.

I'm glad your refuge and the school are sorting out something for your daughter.

My neice is like this. Be mindful of what shes watching on tv, my neice picked up "i just want to die" from some teen drama rubbish SIL lets her watch. She is very 'relaxed' in her parenting style (lazy). Sil was also in refuge after abuse and has 1yo son too

I have been in a very similar situation OP. Lived in refuge with my children who were similar ages to yours and my eldest child’s behaviour was incredibly difficult to deal with for a while- so much rage and confusion as to why her life was like it was, knowing her dad had behaved in a terrible way but still loving him because he is her dad and all sorts of other feelings and emotions to deal with. And because I was struggling with my own stuff, trying to find us a permanent home, going to court, having ss involved I wasn’t at my best to deal with it.

My advice is to keep reaching out for help for all of you as you have been doing, try to put aside some time every day (perhaps when your younger child has gone to bed but before your daughter does) to talk to her about anything she wants to discuss but always try to end the conversation on a positive note even if what’s been said is upsetting. If she struggles to talk to you is there anyone else at say the refuge who she might feel better about confiding in? Or a diary to write or draw pictures in? My daughter found writing letters (but not sending them) to people she was angry or upset with. She still does it now. The bad behaviour- name calling, violence, threats does need dealing with separately to the emotions she’s feeling. I would and did punish for that.

I’m sorry if I have gone on a bit btw. It will get better with time though, I promise. Best wishes to you and your family

So sorry you are going through this op it sounds tough.

It sounds like you have put lots in place to help her. I personally don't think I would be punishing her, of course don't give her what she is tantrumming about but i dont believe actually removing priviliges is going to help. Thats my personal opinion though. As far as possible i would be ignoring meltdowns and praising anything positive i could find to praise.

You sound like you are helping her loads by discussing her emotions. Tell her you understand how she feels but don't follow that with a "but" and then a punishment.

I have a DD that used to have a couple of meltdowns a year probably. They were epic but quite clearly beyond her control. I didn't punish her. She had really sufficiently punished herself by the end of them, in that she'd need to clean up the chaos.

When she finally got to stop seeing her abusive Dad they stopped. I'm still wary of her temper though.

Can you encourage her to write down why she is upset? At 7 my dd would pass me little notes if she couldn't explain out loud. As an adult she is an excellent communicator, just wasn't as a dc.
When my other dd had therapy they did painting, apparently things drawn down can help the brain deal with the bad stuff they have put on paper.

I have also lived in a refuge though my son was a baby.

She will be emotionally all over the place , the fact she is now safe means her emotions can come out.

If she is in a meltdown she isn’t at that point in control. Let her go through her emotions . She may need preparation. After this tv program it will be time for a bath , we are going to eat breakfast and then get dressed . Try making these things fun . We will have a race to get dressed first ( obviously fumble a bit so she can win) sing songs in the bath.

I agree watch the tv but the conversations she is around in the refuge .

If she can’t have the I pad you can have the iPad after tea / tomorrow rather than no. She will be recovering too.

These are all excellent ideas, so thank you so much. These meltdowns have been every day for a week so far. I told her I was proud she could show me how upset she was and it's always safe to tell me how she feels and I will love her no matter what. I'm going to start putting her to bed half an hour later so we get some time to talk together. I also think writing down how she feels is a great idea. I felt so helpless this week. I've been in survival mode sorting things out and I think I might have been a bit emotionally distant, now I've started counselling maybe she can sense i'm dealing with a lot of emotions myself. Yesterday was in the car on the way home from school, so I had no choice, but to make her come with me into the shop to get dinner. Once home and when she settled we made a teddy bears picnic on the floor for dinner and she really enjoyed herself. She tells me a lot I love her little brother more, as generally if I say no to him once he listens and has never been one to have tantrums. Of course I love them the same and tell her this all the time.

Have the council accepted a duty to house you, OP, and have you any idea when you might be able to move on from there? Ime, being in a refuge can be very destabilising for children because of their temporary nature. It's hard for them to feel settled and safe.

Ime, a lot of acting out starts to ease once a family have moved into their long-term home.

My daughter was like this. They have these meltdowns with people they feel safe with. Although my daughter wouldn't let me touch her, I would sit nearby without touching her, just so she knew I was there for her. Eventually she would calm down, and often then we would have cuddles. Just being there for her, with cuddles whenever she is ready, is important.

I would drop the punishments and losing privileges, at least for the moment. Her strong emotions are enough for her to cope with, without adding punishments on top. 'How to talk so that kids will listen and listen so that is will talk' is a useful book with strategies about how to address problem behaviour without punishment.

We also have a past of abuse (my kids' father, who we no longer see). My daughter no longer has huge tantrums, but she does still struggle with strong emotions and I still have to use the strategy of 'ok I won't come near you but I'm here when you're ready'. She also sees a therapist once a week.

She happily only watches cbebbies and Disney films, so I have no idea where she could of heard about killing yourself besides maybe school or the news on the radio. I also going to try and have some one on one time with her Sunday and leave my youngest with my mum for a bit. It doesn't help as i'm not living near my family right now and i'm working and trying to do my best, but i'm mentally and physically exhausted.

Oh, just a silly extra piece of advice ... we usually wrap up a reconciliation by watching cute/silly animal videos on Instagram on my phone. Getting her laughing again really seals the deal with recovering from a tantrum!

I have dealt with 2 children (one my own dd, the other a sibling) who have had violent meltdowns post trauma. And neither of them had actually witnessed violence.

To me, punishing for something so completely out of control didn't seem any more logical than punishing dd when she lashed out during delirium in a high fever. Later conversations with dd confirmed that she hardly knew what she was doing during one of her meltdowns so in my view quite similar to a fever. I don't think my failure to punish her when she had a kidney infection confirmed that it was ok to have a kidney infection. PTSD is like that. It's an illness.

A punishment, apart from being (in my view at least) unjust is also counter-productive as serves to prolong the memory of the stress, give the child the idea that that is who they are. Both my dd and my db needed the respite of the periods when this was not who they were, when there was time for them to laugh and be happy and feel good about themselves. Our motto was always "do not let the sun go down on your wrath" and that worked well.

Both my mother and I followed very similar procedures and as we have produced two highly functional adults, who have been successful in adult relationships and never been in trouble at school or elsewhere, I reckoned we probably made a decent call. Procedure was as follows:

avoid such triggers as you can

use humour to defuse if you can

don't have too many rules

once you have decided you cannot allow something, do not give in or try to purchase good behaviour, accept that meltdowns may have to happen

keep them safe

keep everybody else safe

keep yourself safe

if you can, keep personal and public property safe

don't try to stop the meltdown- it often makes things worse

only cuddle her if that works for her (dd later told me that when she was in a meltdown she couldn't recognise people around her, it just seemed as if a horrible monster was coming to get her)

restrain if you have to (dd used to try to rush at me and bite me which could obviously not be allowed), but do it without anger: imagine that you are restraining a loved one who is in a fever

if a child is trying to bite you it helps to get behind them and hold them by each wrist so you can control where their mouth goes

stay calm

for the time being, your aim is to ensure that nobody gets hurt or frightened

I have memories of endless sessions where I would be holding dd and repeating again and again "no, I cannot let you hurt anybody, no, I will not let you hurt anybody"

That was her security, that made her feel safe: knowing that I could handle the situation at times when she could not.

@LakieLady Yes the council in my home town have accepted me. I'm in band B and bidding on properties I am 10-20 on the list. My refuge have tried to get banding to A, but council say i'm in temporary accommodation and B is the right category. We have been here since March.

@corythatwas great advice, thank you. I'll try all of this.

Try not worry about the BPD as this is environmental (although you have a predisposition to MH issues genetically) caused by either abuse or a falling to teach adequate emotional literacy to an emotionally sensitive child. You are making changes by leaving an abusive situation and by trying to support your daughter. I would look at some emotional literacy with her although they will likely do this in play therapy. This would be things drawing how she feels and then talking about it. Leading by example works well so try to accurately label your emotions, talk about what that means and how you're going to work through it e.g. I'm feeling really stressed because there was lots of traffic and I thought we would be late so I'm going to sit and think of nice things for a minute until I feel calm. I've found using emotion wheels quite good because they're often really colourful and kids like to get involved when they see you using them. I'm sure you know already that she is likely starting to process her experiences now she is safe. Is she able to talk about what happened? Has she witnessed you being verbally abused?

If it really is a meltdown as oppose to a tantrum (and given what she’s been through I think it probably is) then she can’t control it. She’s probably really frightened by it too. I know it’s hard but she needs a shit load of TLC. I’m so sorry for what you’ve all been through.

OP, if you can establish that being in the refuge is adversely impacting your DD's MH, you might be able to get that banding up to A, or to B+ if your council operates that way.

You know op l get so angry at these abusive violent men who damage their own wives and girlfiends and childrens lives, leaving lovely women like you to pick up the pieces.

FWIW l take my hat off to you for being strong enough to go, and protect your children and struggle day in and day out to deal with the fallout...you are a hero....him l'd like to kick hard in the balls..off a high bridge.

There are lots of wise women on here to help you, but please don't give up, once you get your own house it will be so much easier.

Keep doing what you are, children need boundaries to feel safe, you sound like you have a really good handle on parenting, but could do with a break yourself.

I hope you get to move on soon.