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AIBU?

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Original poster

Help - Royal Mail paternity leave query

67 replies

ostrich · 03/06/2019 15:16

Hi,

A friend has had a (lovely) baby with his wife, but the labour was five days and ended in a c-section.
Mum and Dad are both exhausted with very little sleep. With the c-section, Mum will have a limits on her mobility in addition to the exhaustion.

Does anyone have experience with Royal Mail paternity? My friend is trying to contact his union but is going round in circles at the hospital and really stressed.

He was off work for the five days before their baby was finally delivered - then their baby was born, and he thinks paternity leave 'should' start from then. Is that the case? His manager is saying that the paternity started from the first day my friend was off, which means he'll be back at work a lot sooner than he wanted. He doesn't care about the money or anything, he just needs the fortnight from the birth to be off work.

Any advice or experience gratefully received on their behalf. They are on their knees.

OP posts:
SEsofty · 03/06/2019 22:02

And if he didn’t get the five days off formally approved then technically he was off work without approval

stucknoue · 03/06/2019 22:15

Most orgs allow the day of the birth to be taken as compassionate leave, a big unionised workplace is likely to have it written down though i doubt they would have envisaged 5 days! The alternative is a/l or unpaid leave but it will depend on hr, I doubt the manager will have any leeway

SEsofty · 03/06/2019 22:17

Stucknoe

Public sector here and never ever heard of the day of the birth being an extra, has always had to be annual leave or the start of the paternity leave

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 03/06/2019 22:31

The gov website is quite clear:

Leave cannot start before the birth.

I don't know why people post made up stuff as if it were fact when the answer is easily found online Confused He can start his paternity leave from the day the baby is born and is entitled to two weeks, so he seems to be getting unnecessarily worked up about that at the moment - it's irrelevant when his manager thinks paternity leave started as it's there in black and white on the gov website. The problem is how he negotiated those five days prior to the birth?

HiJuice · 03/06/2019 22:40

Royal mail are a nightmare for getting time off. Annual leave has to be booked a year in advance for those suggesting that option. There is absolutely no flexibility for extra time off (even if you are owed lieu time). They also seem to have a terrible attitude towards paternity rights.
I would suggest he just goes sick. No need for doctor involvement for first few days, and you can take a certain amount of sick time before they will do anything about it. (4 incidents or 14 days over a year or similar). I know this sounds terrible to anyone in a normal job, but it's the standard way postmen get extra time off for medical appointments /family emergencies /funerals /etc.
Unpaid parental leave may be another option although I'm not sure how much notice would need to be given for that.

Bibijayne · 03/06/2019 22:44

Is his wife talking her full 52 weeks? Or can she give him some as shared parental leave? Only had to be a couple of weeks and can be taken at the same time.

Bibijayne · 03/06/2019 22:45

They have to let him have SPL off.

jacks11 · 03/06/2019 22:55

If PO’s are right that legally paternity leave cannot start until the baby is born, then he needs to square what leave the 5 days off he has prior to this comes under? Annual leave, unpaid or careers leave may be options- but he needs to come to an agreement with work re this (or risk it being documented as unapproved leave).

He is not sick so cannot be signed off as sick, presumably- though maybe could argue he is suffering from “stress at home”. Being tired and having sleepless nights because you have a newborn isn’t usually deemed a medical problem though.

SocialAwks · 04/06/2019 07:02

Hi,
I work in HR although not for royal mail, I know managers there are notorious for doing what they think is right without even bothering to check so I
strongly advise your friend contacts HR. He should email his manager with the info from the gov website and copy HR into it. Much better than phone calls so he has a record of the conversation.

  1. Paternity leave starts AFTER the baby is born. That is the first shift after, so if you work 9 to 5 Mon to Fri and baby is born at 10am Monday the first day of paternity is Tuesday.
Time off whilst mum is in labour can be covered in whatever way fits with RM policy - holidays, unpaid leave, time for dependants etc
  1. If your friend then needs additional time off to support his partner he can apply for parental leave. This, like paternity leave, is a statutory right (see gov.uk) and when it immediately follows paternity leave it cannot be refused. Its unpaid mind but sometimes there are more important things than money Smile

I hope this helps, I joined mumsnet just to answer this question. Think I must be desperate for work whilst I'm on my maternity leave Grin

SocialAwks · 04/06/2019 07:06

Oh also I wouldn't recommend going off sick unless that is genuinely the case, again this wouldn't be able to start until after the paternity leave. RM are pretty strict on sickness and use an outside company to contact their employees who are off which, in my experience, can be unpleasant and stressful. Plus he could end up in a formal meeting depending on what his sickness record is like.

Thehop · 04/06/2019 07:07

My husband was public service when Ed was born 2 years ago.

Same situation, 5 day labour and EMCS

Family leave for 5 days them paternity leave upon her birth.

AmIRightOrAMeringue · 04/06/2019 07:12

Hi OP

Given its statutory then surely it's set in law?

Maternity leave starts from when the woman is off so I'd assume it's the same.

A c section is hardly unforeseeable as is a long labour or hospital stay so I think they'd argue he should have thought of this as it was always a fairly high possibility. A lot of people either take additional holiday, shared paternity leave which can run concurrently with the mothers, or unpaid paternal leave which is also set in law. Unfortunately most of these require a decent amount if notice but maybe they will allow him one of these or to take the first 5 days as holiday

wizzler · 04/06/2019 07:13

Your friend needs to talk to his line manager.
I think there are a full set of policies on the Rmchat website.. so he could look there, but in the first instance he should talk to his line manager

caughtinanet · 04/06/2019 07:23

This is a frustrating thread, despite links to the actual rules posters are giving false advice.

OP please don't rely on internet randoms, find out from the RM themselves and check facts with government webpages.

Liverbird77 · 04/06/2019 08:28

The poor guy sounds stressed. As no one on here can definitively diagnose, he most certainly should go to the dr, who would hopefully sign him off.
I can't believe the lack of compassion from some people. Hope he feels better soon and enjoys the baby.

Holdthedamndoor · 04/06/2019 08:32

He persuades them by reminding them that the law is that it cant start until the baby is born.

They may ask for proof, if they doubt his story of a five day labour. However the first 5 days maybe unpaid.

Is that an issue?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 04/06/2019 08:37

Maternity leave starts from when the woman is off so I'd assume it's the same. DO NOT ASSUME

The actual law has been posted a few times. Can we all just agree that SocialAwks is absolutely correct and stop adding misinformation?

Original poster
ostrich · 04/06/2019 09:03

Thanks HiJuice. Just the validation I was looking for. My friend has spoken to the union rep, who is going to talk to the manager. It is moving on and my friend can focus more on his wife and child.

OP posts:
Original poster
ostrich · 04/06/2019 09:11

Thanks LiverBird77, I have been surprised also. Perhaps the reactions say more about the posters than they do about my friend's unfair situation.

OP posts:
Original poster
ostrich · 04/06/2019 09:17

Hi SocialAwks,

Sorry if this is a second reply, I think I deleted another I sent to you!

Thanks for your help and experienced advice, I am forwarding your reply to my friend. He can't believe how the manager is acting. It's not my friend's problem that he couldn't book paternity in advance, as you say, RM book time off for the year in advance. You have been a great help and validated his experience. He had got the union involved, the manager will have to let my friend take his legal paternity allowance.

OP posts:
Original poster
ostrich · 04/06/2019 09:23

Thanks again Liverbird77, he is on his knees. They have no network, it's him and his wife and the baby. His wife isn't allowed to lift stuff because of her stitches and if he is at work during her recovery, she is planning to sit next to baby on a changing table! He has been shaking with anxiety.

OP posts:
Hollowvictory · 04/06/2019 09:29

You can't get a sick note for being tired from a new baby! I say that as some who had twins via c section so I do sympathise but seriously!
The period of time he had off before birth was not paternity leave so he needs to clarify with his manager what that was eg holiday.

SEsofty · 04/06/2019 09:34

So he needs to clarify what the five days are being taken, and he should be clear that he’s happy for it to be unpaid.

However there is clearly a bigger issue about how stressed he is. Pat leave is only two weeks and then he will have to go to work.

I think that it’s almost a third of births are sections so they really should have thought about what they would do

Original poster
ostrich · 04/06/2019 09:34

Hollowvictory, this isn't a competition.

OP posts: