To say enough is enough and we need to galvanise for a change in child maintenance laws

[Suliemantra]

I have just read the thread about the man training as a medical doctor in his 50s meaning the mother of his children works full time, is in debt and he pays nothing.

I have just read about the woman whose ex has 50 50, pays maintenance and does no parenting of their children while in his care.

I have read countless threads of men refusing to declare income to avoid child maintenance.

The family courts insist on 50 50 splits if the father wants it but makes no mandate for a father to be involved with children.

The financial and caring burden is disproportionately on women.

Our children are being damaged and our own ability to live outside of poverty considerably compromised.

Why is this allowed to happen? Why aren't we petitioning parliament? How can we do this?

Change needs to be rallied for - does anyone knows of existing campaigns or knows how to campaign in a unified and successful way for change??

*Suliemantra
*
This is a good start:

It is difficult to find a balance. More emphasis on mediation with trained professionals, severe and immediate penalties for proven lying or non-disclosure of finances, mediation-made agreements being enforceable in court would be a good start in my opinion

I agree that this is a good place to start.

Perhaps something about actually conducting a full financial background check for both (?) parents, inc savings?

Totally agree. Make it a prison offence to not support your kids as in US

It already is.

The biggest scandal in the UK in child maintenance is the fact that CMS have wide ranging powers that they don't bother to use.

Successive governments haven't seen child maintenance as an issue worth pushing, therefore there is no political will for CMS to be active.

CMS can without going to court issue a deduction of earnings or take money (either as a one off or regularly) from a bank or post office account.

After going to court they can (amongst other things) -
Put a charge on a property
Send in baliffs to seize goods to sell
Remove a driving license

The final sanction a court can give is a prison sentence.

However, the only recent change to be made is to write off debts once a child becomes an adult. Previously the debt would stay on record and could be recouped from an estate or a lottery win etc etc.

It's not socially unacceptable to dodge maintenance and it's not politically unacceptable to dodge maintenace and until it is nothing will change.

For example why is it ok for the family courts to award 50 50 to a man who while would not meet threshold for social care involvement, does not parent to the same standard as the other parent, ie lax internet safety and porn exposure, lack of taking children to activities, no homework done, poor hygiene etc etc. Why should this be ok? How could this be argued?

I completely agree that this needs to be addressed However, you are right, it needs extremely careful wording, otherwise it be used as either side as form of parental alienation, potentially?

No Plant. There are three residences. Children stay in one. They are parented there by one parent some of the time, at other times by the other parent.

When not parenting, the parents stay in their own separate residences. These can be relatively small and simple residences, or another family home.

The point is the children stay in the “main family home”

I don’t dispute that 50/50 is better than staying with one parent and rarely staying with the other. But it’s not better than a nesting strategy where the children stay in situ and the parents go back and forth.

Can we create a ten point charter for change of CMS

1. Use the powers you already have
2. Use the powers you already have
3. Use the powers you already have
4. Use the powers you already have
5. Use the powers you already have
6. Use the powers you already have
7. Use the powers you already have
8. Use the powers you already have
9. Use the powers you already have

10. Use the powers you already have

I'm honestly not being bitchy or facetious. That's literally all CMS have to do. Use the powers they already have to their fullest.

Actually totally agree with lyralalala.

This is simply all that needs to be done.

Thing is, the system has never worked. And I don't see how it can be changed

@PizzaForPusheen

I may have misread. But are you suggesting that split up parents somehow fund 3 properties? How would they ever remarry and have other children? How would they move into the "family" residence for 50% of the time if they have other children at their "home" who need looking after?
That's a bonkers idea. And simply not workable in any way, shape or form.

There are three residences. Children stay in one. They are parented there by one parent some of the time, at other times by the other parent

ah right, that seems like one massive recipe for disaster, and how do you propose that people pay for 3 homes between them?

I actually think that children staying put and adults coming and going is far more disturbing than children having "mums house" and "dads house" and being able to come and go as they choose (when they are old enough obvs)

I spoke to the cms, and gave them the court papers that clearly stated ex was working. And they just said that all they could work off the benefits claim that he had put in.

What I get in a year from him doesn't even cover a third of a month for my child to go to nursery.

I've been banging this drum since I was a teenager and CSA was screwing over my grandparents (at least the ridiculousness of income support etc counting maintenance as income even though CSA had never collected has been ended).

CMS have all the powers they need. They just need enough staff and political will to actually use them.

I know several non paying parents who would suddenly change their tune at the thought of a charge on their house or CMS raiding their savings. CMS can do that. Yet they don't.

My father owed thousands. He lived in the same house for over 20 years. He inherited a very large chunk of money (and a house). This was all reported to them repeatedly. They didn't even have to go to court to take money from his bank account - that's one of the powers they already have! Yet the only time they took money from him was from his estate a couple of years ago - and the only reaosn they did that was because he owed the secretary of state money from when that was the way it worked.

I didn't realise they had all that power actually - why don't they use it?!

mad.

I thought the issue was that legally they could do fuck all as its more of a civil matter so I am surprised they can do all these things, but just... don't.

@pizzaforpusheen - um, that was pretty condescending!

I do not regard myself as superior to my ex at all. And I certainly don't convey anything like that to my children.

This is a debate about people taking advantage of the maintenance system. I was setting out why the prooosal to require those who have 50/50 care to still pay maintenance is equally open to abuse, but in the other direction. As part of that, I explained how my ex already plays the system. There are many women on this thread describing how their exes have played the system. You don't appear to have challenged any of them on the basis that they think they are superior to their ex. Is it only men you behave like that to?

I stand by the view that my ex is free to make any decisions she wishes to, when it comes to her career. But I also stand by my view that it is not my responsibility to subsidise those decisions in the way that some on here are proposing I should. Because that would be replacing one flawed system with another one.

My ex has many good points. I focus on those with my daughters. My daughters do talk to me about the things they are struggling with at her house. Sometimes, that's money. Sometimes, it's her unpredictable behaviour. She is a troubled person, whose anger, rages, jealousy, insecurity, and two separate physical assaults on me (including one where I ended up at casualty) resulted in our marriage ending. Despite that, she also has many positive features - when she's well, she can be lovely. She unquestionably loves the children, and does her best for them. My children do unload to me about the times when they find things difficult over there. I make no apology for that - they need someone they can come to, to help them make sense of those behaviours when they experience them

You know nothing about my family. This is a debate about whether the maintenance system works, and I've contributed to that to set out why the ideas that some people are pushing wouldn't work, based on my perfectly legitimate lived experience. You've chosen to attack my parenting instead of engaging with that. You've done that despite many women on here saying far worse things about their exes. That might tell you something about yourself, if you choose to reflect upon it.

I work in a building dedicated to CM. There are honestly 100's (maybe 1k+) people on a MINIMUM of £25k chasing these bastards... I walk to my office hearing ' ok, so you think you can afford £50 a month... '

This needs knocking on the head. My solution is that upon the end of your marriage or relationship, the RP notifies the tax office . From THERE ON IN your tax code changes to 1150L + (however many children) .... and THAT is deducted from pay.

No 28 day wait, No excuses . Your kids. YoU pay

@plantpotparrot That's one of the most enraging things about them. They have so many powers that they don't use.

I firmly believe it's because it's socially acceptable not to pay for your kids, therefore there's no political will to do anything to push CMS.

Why is it ok for the family courts to award 50 50 to a man who while would not meet threshold for social care involvement, does not parent to the same standard as the other parent, ie lax internet safety and porn exposure, lack of taking children to activities, no homework done, poor hygiene etc etc. Why should this be ok?

Presumably because the woman in question made the choice as to the father of the child. It’s not for the government to judge that choice. For better or worse - that’s the parent they chose.

When I was fighting to get any money from my ex, I asked them why they weren't using their enforcement powers. I asked why the only action they'd taken was to spend 6 months sending him letters every 6 weeks. That's all they did. The answer the operator gave me was "oh, we rarely use those severe options. It's not necessary. We will just keep contacting him since he should be paying this and the government really don't want to be involved disputes between parents. It really down to him, not us".

I have tried many times to request a copy of the recording of that call but no luck.

From CMS's own leaflet

If we can’t agree with the paying parent about how and when they will pay, we will take collection action. We’ll take the action ourselves – we don’t have to apply to a court first.

We can do one or all of the following:
• take money direct from their earnings
• take money direct from their bank, building society or PostOffice account.

If the paying parent still hasn’t paid, or if we think it is a better course of action, we will use our enforcement powers through the courts to try to get the child maintenance you are owed. We may also ask the courts to award us costs, which the paying parent may also have to pay.

And if they go to court...

First, we will apply for a court order called a ‘liability order’. This means asking a court to recognise that the paying parent has built up an amount of child maintenance debt over a certain period of time.

The order gives us the power to take legal actions (shown below) that help us to collect the child maintenance you are owed.

We will then use the liability order to take action such as:
• asking bailiffs or sheriff officers to go to the paying parent’s home andseize belongings, and then sell them to cover the child maintenance owed
• putting a ‘charge’ against a property or some other asset so that itcan’t be sold or remortgaged without the child maintenance being paid off first. This makes things difficult for the paying parent and can encourage them to pay
• forcing the sale of a property or other asset and collecting the moneyfrom it to pay the child maintenance owed
• taking away the paying parent’s driving licence
• sending the paying parent to prison.

If you are having trouble with CMS then contact your MP. Especially at a time where votes are likely to be precious.

IsabellaLinton and what if that father turned out to be an a grade dickhead? Who didn't show their true colours until there was a child in the mix? Stats show that a lot of domestic violence begins when a woman is pregnant. That's why there is a standard question at the booking in appointment...

but makes no mandate for a father to be involved with children.

On the point of this - I can't see why forcing a father who doesn't want to be involved with his children to be involved is in the best interest of the child. He may be physically there but the children are still unwanted. Either way they're damaged.

My DS’s father has just stopped paying CM. He had a job which he was made redundant from due to his alcoholism. Last July he received £36000 in redundancy which he was living off. He also gets £530 per month PIP. In March I had his up to date bank statements and he’d got just over £18000 left. His outgoings are less than mine, he’s had far more money than me and he’d got through twice the amount of money I had in the period covered by the statements.

So now he’s paying me nothing.He’s living in our house which me and DS had to leave because of his abuse. He’s sandbagged me over the divorce for 6 years. I’ve taken him to court but the judge said he would allow ex to stay in the house. I’m stuck on a mortgage and a joint HA tenancy because he’s refused to get me off, even when he could comfortably do so. So now I’m skint from legal fees, we’re living in insecure housing, stuck on a mortgage and tenancy that he could default on at any time and drag my name down with him, excluded from social housing despite being a disabled single parent, and no CM payments either. DS hasn’t even seen his father for 18 months due to his father’s drinking and violence, he’s never so much as took him for a hair cut or given him a single birthday or christmas present. I’ve done it all.

And just to add insult to injury, I’ve spent over an hour waiting to get through to CMS on the phone today and when I’ve finally got through, I’ve been cut off before I’ve even managed to quote my reference number, and this has happened twice.

how do you expect an NRP to live on 60% of a wage?!
How many resident parents usually mothers do you know, who spend more than half their income on themselves and not their dc?

how do you expect an NRP to live on 60% of a wage?!

Agreed.

It’s almost half of NRP’s wage which RP hasn’t on top of their full wage. NRP is supposed to be supporting their children not paying half of all their household expenses of RP and all of their own. RP should expect to pay their own rent etc with a contribution account for children.

The RP is paying for their child with their full wages. And like I said the majority will be spending more than 60% of their wage on their child not themselves.