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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the idea that education is state brainwashing is BS

176 replies

Echobelly · 29/05/2019 16:59

It’s a bit of a bugbear of mine that some people insist that schools serve a function of keeping young people docile and unquestioning. I mean, I was educated a while ago now, but at a state school, and the absolute #1 thing I remember from history was being taught always to question the bias of your sources. Hardly the actions of system dedicated to preventing children from questioning authority. I’m pretty sure kids these days are not being taught ‘Yay! The British Empire was Great’ or ‘The government is fantastic, questioning it is disloyal’, by those notorious right-wingers, teachers.

With DD starting secondary next term, I’d be interested to know if anyone does feel from their own child’s current experience, that schools are somehow attempting to beat them down into dumb subservience? As most of the people I hear espousing the view don’t seem to be those with kids in schools currently.

I guess people also go ‘Oh, but it’s all this “obedience” and following “rules”’ which I think is also kind of bullshit because people actually are intelligent enough to see the difference between rules needed to get along with things like learning, and things in the world that are profound injustices. You can follow the school rules all your educational life and still go on to protest against government abuses of human rights or whatever – it doesn’t mean you get conditioned to accept everything you’re told to think or do.

Don’t get me wrong, too many young people are ill-served by underfunded schools, but lack of critical thinking is probably more to do with distracting media and the rampant self-interest it promotes then schools being some wicked hand of The State.

OP posts:
Graphista · 31/05/2019 21:57

"We've even unlocked why more left leaning themes tend to dominate in certain types of literature" have you balanced this with right leaning themes and writers? Which given that for most of the time writers writing in English and being published in English speaking countries have been rich, white men?

"However it's the skills that are most important, not the texts themselves" could not disagree more, that's quite disturbing an English teacher thinks the texts are unimportant!

"I have no idea about British Colonialism because I was never taught it."

A blindingly obvious from your earlier post!

B what has stopped you from learning yourself? From checking BEFORE making ignorant comments?

"As I said we did Ancient Egypt" ancient Egyptians contributed much to mathematics, science, engineering... Was none of that even MENTIONED?!

I'd be very interested in where you are from, as seemingly the education there isn't particularly well rounded either.

Graphista · 31/05/2019 21:58

LolaSmiles I don't disagree with discipline but I do disagree with unnecessary rules and regulations and uniform IS unnecessary, the vast majority of schools around the world don't have them, there's even a few in uk that don't and their pupils are still disciplined where actually necessary.

There are multiple issues too with the type of uniform we tend to have in this country which involves difficult fastenings, excessive number of items, even rules which are damaging to pupil health - I'm thinking particularly of children's feet because traditional school shoes are APPALLINGLY bad for growing feet. But there's also fabrics irritating sensitive skin, buttons digging in, pupils expected to be clothed inappropriately for the weather... Totally nonsensical!

And these rules are enforced even when there are clear and evidenced medical reasons for pupils to wear different items.

"Many workplaces have dress codes. The 'but wearing X doesn't affect the brain/learning' is a daft argument in my opinion." Why?! What we wear largely has NO effect on our ability to learn

What would we call a society which had rules for NO reason other than to ensure conformity?

Workplaces with dress codes have those dress codes usually for good reasons:

Health & safety

to prevent accidents mainly (hair tied back no loose sleeves, shoes with covered toes...

To prevent spread of infection - again hair tied back, no loose clothing, short sleeves, no wearing of uniform outside of the workplace ...

Camouflage in battle environments

Identification purposes

So customers/patients recognise staff in an establishment in order to know who to ask for help

To identify workers in larger environments in order to locate them or know where to place them

So the general public can identify certain types of employees in order to know who they can approach eg police

To identify "friendly" vs "enemy" combatants, to identify rank so as to enable efficient military action

Some employers also have uniform unnecessarily. If you're working in an office with no customer facing aspects aside from general decency there's no reason for a dress code.

In raising my dd any "rules" I had I explained the reasoning to her, if she asked a question, especially if I had to say no to something she wanted to do I explained my reasoning. Now I know you can't do this on an individual basis in school but if the rules are common sense then there's usually an obvious reason why they exist. If a little explanation is required no reason schools can't do this via website etc. If they can't explain why they have the rule then that would strongly suggest there isn't a good reason for it!

"Uniform is a great leveller" absolute rubbish! Especially when so many schools now are not only strictly defining their uniforms but taking it to the point that ONLY items bought from ONE specific EXPENSIVE shop is acceptable! It means parents need to buy kids (especially primary age) clothes for out of school time that are barely worn before they outgrow them, it means parents being made to buy replacement items towards the end of the summer term for a matter of a few weeks, including shoes which are expensive, which will be outgrown before the Autumn term begins.

As someone who has been on benefits while dd was at school who struggled to buy even the basics from the cheapest shops even with a uniform grant (which never covers enough)

No that's a complete myth!

That would only be true if only the cheapest items were permitted!

"therefore it can help prevent bullying." 😂😂😂😂 aye right!

"seeing how close and united they become when they see other schools!" Everywhere I've lived, what ACTUALLY happens is if you DARE venture into a different schools catchment area or a pupil is attending a school outside their catchment area and therefore can't avoid this as soon as an "opposing" schools uniform is spotted that's usually a cue for at best insults being hurled and at worst a battering!

Graphista · 31/05/2019 21:59

Bloodebloop sounds like you have a similar outlook to me. I don't believe there's any such thing as a simply "bad kid" I'm not a teacher, but I've been caring for other people's kids since I was 14 in a variety of roles including nanny, childminder and guide/Scout leader. I've never come across a kid yet who's bad behaviour didn't stem from something going seriously wrong in their lives that wasn't their fault.

"Children are capable of thought which is much more complex than we give them credit for. It is adults who are much to likely to accept something because it's just the way things are, whereas children are inherently curious and dissatisfied with answers they deem unsatisfactory" totally agree

"The absence of topics is as important as inclusion." Absolutely

BiBabbles of course no educational system can teach everything but they can teach with much less bias and they can teach pupils to question and research and learn for themselves - that is what I feel is lacking currently.

I agree that home ed, state and private education all have failings.

My ex was privately educated and frankly is thick as 2 short planks! His well meaning parents (not particularly well educated themselves) only discovered AFTER their kids left school that the school concerned wasn't being well run and many of the teachers weren't even qualified and those that were had scraped through and were unable to get jobs in state schools! There was a heavy focus on discipline but I suspect that meant that much classroom time was taken up with teachers telling pupils off rather than teaching! Wasn't cheap either.

As an army brat I had friends who attended private boarding schools (at that time the army subsidised these heavily) and some received an excellent, well rounded positive educational experience but others had huge gaps in their knowledge.

I've met and studied with a few people who were home educated some were very well educated and capable people, others had a false view of how good their knowledge was, couldn't cope with the most basic rule following and struggled to keep up academically with post 16 education, I mean struggling to understand basic concepts not just railing against facts they had been taught the opposite of.

The schools I attended were all state schools and varied greatly in quality and approach.

There's no ideal system in those terms.

"but my god 15 years in the army does not allow for critical thinking and the idea of it made his head practically explode." HA! So true! When I met ex he was an "I don't do politics" type (that "ad" was around the same time) because it was "boring and doesn't affect me" you're in the Fucking army! It affects you in a life or death way literally!! I've always been politically engaged (though likely many here would consider me "brainwashed" as I was raised by 2 people who were at least at one point in their lives shop stewards 😂) so when we met and particularly when we started living together and he was present when I was watching shouting at the news, question time etc he had a bit of a shock awakening, I remember watching one particular question time and the 1st gulf war was being discussed and a panellist said something bonkers as ex was passing by to make a cuppa, and even he went "wtf did he just say?!" He was even more bewildered that a few of the audience were applauding the panellist! That was something of a turning point.

I must admit I was conscious of the possibility of MY indoctrinating him to my views as he was pretty much a blank slate, so there was lots of me saying (through gritted teeth) but some right wing arseholes think X instead, so read up on y issue, not just in the sources I tend to prefer but go to the library, buy newspapers and magazines (that blew his mind that there were political magazines), talk to other people and make your own mind up.

I had a very short wobble when at a work do his then boss took me to one side and said something like "so you've been trying to teach him some politics" in a sort of "stern" way but it was meant humorously and he then chuckled and said something like "time somebody got his brain working" and we then had a lively debate on the upcoming election, ex was also surprised at this as his boss and I clearly had opposing opinions and ideals but were able to have a spirited but friendly debate on the subject.

"I think the trouble is that with traditional subjects is that any debate is way beyond a child's competence" what?! Of course it isn't! The level of debate may vary but dismissing children as unable to debate is ridiculous!

"You have to show some humility"
Oh boy! And no sense of irony either!!

LittleAndOften · 31/05/2019 22:14

I'm just going to leave this here. From the current GCSE English syllabus. Seems apt.

Checking Out Me History by John Agard

Dem tell me
Dem tell me
Wha dem want to tell me

Bandage up me eye with me own history
Blind me to me own identity

Dem tell me bout 1066 and all dat
dem tell me bout Dick Whittington and he cat
But Toussaint L’Ouverture
no dem never tell me bout dat

Toussaint
a slave
with vision
lick back
Napoleon
battalion
and first Black
Republic born
Toussaint de thorn
to de French
Toussaint de beacon
of de Haitian Revolution

Dem tell me bout de man who discover de balloon
and de cow who jump over de moon
Dem tell me bout de dish ran away with de spoon
but dem never tell me bout Nanny de maroon

Nanny
see-far woman
of mountain dream
fire-woman struggle
hopeful stream
to freedom river

Dem tell me bout Lord Nelson and Waterloo
but dem never tell me bout Shaka de great Zulu
Dem tell me bout Columbus and 1492
but what happen to de Caribs and de Arawaks too

Dem tell me bout Florence Nightingale and she lamp
and how Robin Hood used to camp
Dem tell me bout ole King Cole was a merry ole soul
but dem never tell me bout Mary Seacole

From Jamaica
she travel far
to the Crimean War
she volunteer to go
and even when de British said no
she still brave the Russian snow
a healing star
among the wounded
a yellow sunrise
to the dying

Dem tell me
Dem tell me wha dem want to tell me
But now I checking out me own history
I carving out me identity

Graphista · 31/05/2019 22:50

Littleandoften

Thanks for that post.

Clearly an excellent and thought provoking poem but it's surely a mere drop in the ocean?

Oliversmumsarmy · 31/05/2019 22:58

B what has stopped you from learning yourself? From checking BEFORE making ignorant comments

This is about schools. How was I supposed to check? Go into schools and ask about when they taught Colonialism.

As I said we did Ancient Egypt" ancient Egyptians contributed much to mathematics, science, engineering... Was none of that even MENTIONED

I didn't say it wasnt

I'd be very interested in where you are from, as seemingly the education there isn't particularly well rounded either

Grin

Well I can tell you it wasn't as privileged as your upbringing.

Army brat, suggests you had at least one parent in a steady job and a house that wasn't a slum.

LittleAndOften · 31/05/2019 23:53

"it's surely a mere drop in the ocean?"

I'm pleased to say it's not. The system isn't perfect but the content, the diversity of themes and cultures, and the broad range of writers covered in English, is pretty good. In particular poetry, specifically poetry from other cultures has been an English curriculum and exam staple for at least 15 years. This isn't something that is just tacked on for GCSE either, it is a curriculum requirement throughout school.

Graphista · 01/06/2019 01:06

"This is about schools. How was I supposed to check? Go into schools and ask about when they taught Colonialism" I was referring to your assertion that "most" initial mathematical knowledge/development of the subject came from Europeans.

"I didn't say it wasn't" it was certainly implied in the tone of that entire post!

"Well I can tell you it wasn't as privileged as your upbringing."

Army brat, suggests you had at least one parent in a steady job and a house that wasn't a slum." Oh really? Daughter of a squaddie not an officer, he was/is also a violent, abusive alcoholic. Mum enabled him and favours/favoured my younger sister. Deeply dysfunctional toxic family in several ways. I may have had a roof over my head but there was plenty I went without including feeling safe & heard at home. Yes there were a few aspects of my existence that were/are privileged - being white, dad somehow hanging onto a job but it wasn't well paid and once the alcoholism took hold much of it was pissed away, army quarters ain't that great either!

Plus that's more a deflection than an answer! I made NO assumptions about your life or where your from beyond noting - based on your comments - that the education wasn't very broad.

"I'm pleased to say it's not. The system isn't perfect but the content, the diversity of themes and cultures, and the broad range of writers covered in English, is pretty good. In particular poetry, specifically poetry from other cultures has been an English curriculum and exam staple for at least 15 years. This isn't something that is just tacked on for GCSE either, it is a curriculum requirement throughout school." You've kind of made my point there. One subject, a subject that's had other influential, usually left leaning writers removed from the primary text lists.

Plus it's fairly clear from this thread that it's not necessarily taught the same way everywhere.

Also I believe there are still several exam boards that cover England? So is the curriculum truly national? Genuine questions there.

LolaSmiles · 01/06/2019 08:16

I'm pleased to say it's not. The system isn't perfect but the content, the diversity of themes and cultures, and the broad range of writers covered in English, is pretty good. In particular poetry, specifically poetry from other cultures has been an English curriculum and exam staple for at least 15 years. This isn't something that is just tacked on for GCSE either, it is a curriculum requirement throughout school.
I agree.
And teaching that Agard poem someone posted above ended up spiralling into a week of debates.

No system is perfect in every way, but as far as I can see all schools and teachers ever get told most of the time is that they're not doing good enough (either from think tanks and government ministers who want to justify their next reform or parents who think they know more about how to teach a curriculum and run a school of 1500 students without ever having set foot in the classroom).

I personally don't like the prescribed logos and single supplier uniforms, but I can understand why some schools go down that route. I've seen different systems of behaviour work in different schools (and would argue there is a correlation between out of school culture in the catchment area and the challenges/approaches needed). Schools are complex organisations and sometimes there's got to be a bit of humility to the effect of 'I might not choose X Y Z and disagree with A B C, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for another school to do it'.

LittleAndOften · 01/06/2019 12:49

@graphista I'm not going to take you through the whole curriculum but I could supply references for every one of your questions. Yes to other cultures, yes to Scottish, Welsh and Irish works and issues, yes to open debate, yes to contemporary concerns, yes to feminism, prejudice, immigration, warfare, politics, oppression all being explored.

As for the exam boards, the curriculum and assessment objectives are set by the government. The exam boards have some, but very limited scope to do things differently from one another. Broadly speaking, Edexcel, AQA, WJEC, OCR etc follow the same or similar lists of set texts and have to deliver the same requirements with regard to themes, diversity, historical context and skills. So yes, it is "national". And as much as I'd love to drop in another few poems and extracts here in support, I think if you want to know more go and do some reading - it's all in the public domain.

The flaws in the system are not with the content, they are with government ideologies interfering with how schools function, with its abuse of teachers and with its over-emphasis on accountability and admin.

Graphista · 02/06/2019 02:27

The flaws in the system are not with the content, they are with government ideologies interfering with how schools function, with its abuse of teachers and with its over-emphasis on accountability and admin.

I can definitely see that being a factor. And feel it's wrong, govts shouldn't be able to influence education to that degree.

I'm glad if it's true that education in the English system is better in terms of broadness to what I experienced. Which also occurred under a tory govt by the way.

I think I did say I understand schools/teachers can't teach everything there just isn't the time, but I think it's important that pupils are engaged and excited by learning and that's the goal that schools/teachers should be aiming for.

I loved school (with the exception of maths which I really struggled with) I wasn't a top grade student but I loved learning and enjoyed gaining new knowledge and worked hard.

I've been something of a glutton for punishment as I've been to college after school - full time plus quite a few evening classes, and uni twice. As a mature student I definitely noticed a difference between mature students loving the challenge and opportunity and the younger ones seeing it as necessary in order to get a job/stop parents nagging.

It saddens me to see so many youngsters now seeing school as a chore full of stress and pressure.

Olive30 · 02/06/2019 07:22

I think it is too blunt to say this is a deliberate policy. We are fortunate to live in a pluralist democracy and a good teacger/school should encourage free thought, debate and development of critical thinking. As an English and media teacher, this is my main motivation and I tend to prioritise ideas such as considering source, opinion and bias etc...we also study Marxism and different perspectives. But at the same time, I have to prepare tten for exams. A significant minority of my students don't want to have to think and discuss, they just want the teacher to 'tell' them how to get an 'A' so I know what you mean. However, I refuse to teach to the exam despite the pressures.

Oliversmumsarmy · 03/06/2019 09:53

Not necessarily brain washing but I do think there is something in the way children are taught and the subjects that are no longer taught in a lot of schools (can’t say every school because I don’t know every school but can only comment on the schools I know)

A lot of schools now are known for their preference for Music and Drama, IT, Sports and Maths etc but I don’t know a single school that has a preference for the trades.

In fact I only know one school that teaches a trade and that is almost a lesson in IT the way it is taught. It is virtually an academic subject.

It does feel over the last 30 years like the careers that children who weren’t academic would go into have been slowly erased from the curriculum and if they did want to study them at college then to get a place you had to have so many GCSEs that for a lot of these children it would make it impossible for them to access the course.

Friend was a nurse. (Made redundant). Left school at 16 and went into nursing. No way would she have been able to get a degree and if she was able, then she would have pursued a career that had better pay.

Now if you aren’t academic then your prospects are very limited.

BiBabbles · 03/06/2019 12:11

"I just don't think governments are organised enough to think 'Ooh, I know, we'll make education insufficient so people will accept bad policies!' They're mostly just lazy."

Really? Then why has sociology as a subject largely been phased out? Why have certain books been removed from reading lists?

Prioritizing, typically economically. There isn't really the political will nor financial gain at a time when many schools are considering cutting hours to balance the books to have a more comprehensive history or other humanities curriculum and it's easier to have a smaller selection of books for exam boards. It isn't malice, many teachers would love to teach wider, but the time and funds and wider social will isn't there. I think the financial cuts have malice, but not what the schools are doing in response to cuts and regulations.

Also, sad as it is for me to say as that was my academic home, sociology is one of the fields that has been most hit by the recent journal scandals and many of the resources for it that I've seen published for schools and young people are shite. If we want less one-sided bias, then we'd need an academic and funding shake-up from the top if we ever want to sociological texts that aren't ideologically-driven to end up in schools. I wouldn't give any of mine one of the sociology texts for schools I've seen recently without a heavy dose of notes added alongside, and I'm not the only one - there have been plenty of complaints about them. We can't expect schools to teach what is largely missing in the adult field, no matter how frustrating either is.

And having gone to many schools without uniforms, they all still had dress codes and no matter how relaxed they were, there was still plenty of staff time dealing with students pushing the boundaries, particularly in high schools. I clearly remember me and some of my classmates wearing short shorts and tanktops in the middle of a Midwestern winter, snow piled high, because teenagers. The idea that getting rid of uniforms would automatically mean more suitable sensible comfortable clothing or saving time is nonsense. I think either route has benefits and risks, but not having a uniform isn't going to solve most of the issues with clothing, it mostly just replaces them with other issues.

BiBabbles of course no educational system can teach everything but they can teach with much less bias and they can teach pupils to question and research and learn for themselves - that is what I feel is lacking currently.

More varying biases and teaching kids to see and analyze bias I can see, but just going for less bias I don't think will work for many subjects. With just one subject as an example, all of history is full of bias, down to some of the dates we use for events, and is used by people for many purposes. The coffee house text I linked above, I've seen people within the last decade use them to show how oppressive each of the sexes were to each other in the 1600s (for my sanity, I assume they read a description and not the full text). For geography, our maps are full of bias and assumptions. I think it's better to show the biases within these fields and openly discuss them and how there is so much more out there for them to learn.

Teaching kids to research and question and learn for themselves well is a very time-intensive ongoing task for many reasons - even more now with the internet as it is - and takes a certain level of development before any teaching it will be of use. Much like maths, there are steps along the way and much like science, doing it before developmentally ready just means having to either water it down to the point of ridiculousness that means it has to be retaught later or kids are left to flounder. I think we'd need a far larger budget for learning support to get the step-by-step research and learning process in school done well. I don't think there is the political or social will for it.

Really, in my school experience and the very limited one my DD has had so far, I think they do expect too much questioning, researching, and learning on their own at too early an age. During the Easter break, my Y7 DD had 5 research projects to do plus a couple other assignments. I walk her through the research process every time. I still walk my Y9 child through the research process for his essays, more so when he's entirely in charge of the assignment because it takes quite a lot of skills to pick a suitable topic, research it well, and produce results others can understand. This isn't something simple we can tack on or just make more of.

Personally, I prioritize being able to analyze and critique what comes before them because everyone is going to come across texts that aren't what they appear at first glance, and finding evidence within the text for their answers and through gaining those skills we come to starting to get the first steps to be able to question, research, and learn for themselves well.

There is no way there is time in the school day for all the humanities people have wanted in this thread and teaching the skills needed for good questioning, research, and self-learning, let alone all the other stuff schools are expected to do. We can use the humanities to do those things, I do it all the time, but it would still be a much smaller fraction than people are asking for.

The issue isn't schools are brainwashing, that's just making schools a scapegoat. The problem is there is little agreement on what schools are meant to be or do and little resources to do all the things expected of them, and they are prioritizing for what there are resources and will. Part of that is because, as a society, we're not entirely sure what we want children or adults to do, there has been some good work expanding girls' options in the last half century, but for either sex, how to consider those options is a big social questions no one has much answers to so we can't really expect schools to do that.

I think rather than hating on and making conspiracies about schools for not doing enough, we need to figure out how to do more ourselves for our kids & communities.

Graphista · 03/06/2019 20:34

"Prioritizing, typically economically."

That does not explain WHY certain subjects and texts have been removed from the syllabus.

"if we ever want to sociological texts that aren't ideologically-driven to end up in schools." So you really believe there's no ideological drive/bias in texts used in other subjects?!

And ok I agree less bias is perhaps wishful thinking but a much more balanced approach should be possible.

"Teaching kids to research and question and learn for themselves well is a very time-intensive ongoing task" I don't agree because I believe this isn't about what is taught but how it's taught. The best teachers dd and I have had haven't had more time or resources than other teachers but had a genuine love and passion for their subject and taught in such a way that it inspired students to be interested and WANT to learn more themselves. Generally all teachers should be guiding students on assessing resource quality anyway (something I do feel is seriously lacking). Early in her high school career I was shocked to find dd was getting good marks for homework which cited seriously dubious sources! I was able to guide her myself but not all parents can do this, and not all children HAVE parents to do this. One of dds friends who was in the care system was really left floundering in subjects which relied on skills like this.

Graphista · 03/06/2019 20:35

"but I don’t know a single school that has a preference for the trades." I totally agree. Non academic subjects are so rare in schools now. It's doing our children a serious disservice.

How is a potentially excellent chef, joiner, electrician, mechanic etc meant to even know they could be good at such jobs if they never even get a chance to try such skills?

I've relatives that are trades people, they didn't do well academically at school but the older ones were still able to gain qualifications while at school that enabled them to get jobs in the trades they do - that has been MUCH harder for the younger ones.

We've a dearth of applicants for trades in Britain because people can't afford to go to college and college courses have been/are being cut in these areas too

I've a friend who's a taxi driver but had applied for a mechanics course at the local college because she was wanting to facilitate a career change to doing this probably self employed (she's already pretty good at maintaining her own car and does repairs etc for friends and family) as she's wanting to start a family and the taxi driving if she were restricted to family friendly hours wouldn't pay enough round here. But the course was cancelled due to lack of funding.

When I was looking at job vacancies a couple years ago for both dd and I (long story) the majority were for jobs in trades, but (understandably) asking for people with certain qualifications and experience.

The kind of roles we were looking at (admin, retail, childcare, care work) were getting mostly over 200 applicants per vacancy, the trades jobs were getting around 100 (but I suspect that many of those applying weren't appropriately qualified/experienced as the same jobs were advertised for several months).

And I'm forever hearing people in the uk bemoaning the lack of plumbers, electricians, joiners etc or saying that they're so busy they're waiting months for tradespeople to be free to work with them.

It's good honest work, requires skills and talents I certainly don't have (I struggle to build a flat pack bookcase!) and are very much needed in our community, yet we have such snobbery against these type of jobs in this country.

A friend of mines husband left school having passed not one academic subject. Starting by building on woodwork and metalwork skills from school, then being able to access further courses at college, then working in the construction industry and gaining experience he now - well for the last 15 or so years - has very successfully been buying up run down properties, doing them up himself - flipping them. He occasionally gets in additional help but he tends to take on small properties - 1-2 bed flats - and the only thing he has to get someone in for to comply with regulations are gas engineers and he says that's because the regulations on this are so stringent and constantly being updated (understandably) and he can't stay on top of those and the electrical ones.

I am an academic person, unfortunately I've been subjected on occasion (by people who don't know me well inc on here sometimes) to a sort of inverse snobbery where they've assumed that because I'm academic I look down on people who aren't, particularly if they have a trade or otherwise not considered academic job. When actually I'm in total awe of the skills more practical people have.

These skills ARE Just as admirable as academic ability, it frustrates me no end that as a generality the U.K. Doesn't value these skills and support those with them.

There's been a couple of recent tv shows where children/teens took part where alternative education models were considered which included vocational/practical subjects and there were kids participating in the shows, who weren't confident because they weren't academic types and this had made school difficult for them. They discovered via participating in the shows that they were actually good at something and the difference this made to their confidence levels was fabulous!

LIFE isn't academic, there are many areas of life where academic ability isn't much use.

Graphista · 03/06/2019 20:35

"Friend was a nurse. (Made redundant). Left school at 16 and went into nursing. No way would she have been able to get a degree and if she was able, then she would have pursued a career that had better pay." I'm an ex nurse myself. I was among the first to qualify via a degree but when I first applied the old system was still in place. So I've worked with nurses and other hcps that have been trained under the old system.

The push to make nursing academic was imo (look at the timing) due to public pressure on the govt to take pressure off junior Drs who at that time were really struggling with crazy long hours and little support. So the govt (tory what a surprise) decided to academise nursing so that they'd have people that could take on certain tasks that at the time were the responsibility of junior Drs.

It was rushed in, poorly implemented initially.

I've a friend I trained with who is now a training mentor on her ward.

She and I have had many discussions regarding so many of those being recruited to nurse training who look down their noses at the idea of doing basic patient care, they think it's beneath them.

They don't want to do bathing, bedpans, feeding, cleaning patients after they've vomited etc I don't know what's going on in training as these types also seem to not understand that performing these tasks with/for patients aren't only caring (and therefore useful in building rapport and trust with the patient) but can provide excellent insights into the condition of the patient - both when things are relatively "ok" and if they deteriorate. If you don't know what a patient's baseline is for certain things it's very difficult to notice/quantify when they deteriorate or improve.

I'm guessing your friend was an rgn possibly even an Sen? And therefore trained when the focus was more on the practicalities of patient care?

We're losing people like this from healthcare - who are bloody good at it - because of this over emphasis on academics.

I left because I felt patient care was losing priority and there was too much bureaucracy coming in. I wanted to care for patients not spend more time completing often unnecessary paperwork than I was spending with patients.

Oliversmumsarmy · 04/06/2019 10:22

The issue I was also trying to put across is the fact that the news tells us relentlessly that there is a shortage of nurses so we have to bring in people from abroad to fill the gap yet friend and others at her level ended up being made redundant.

My point exactly about having a degree as friend said, if she had a degree she wouldn’t have gone into nursing.

Schools I think do have an element of brain washing children. The huge stress over SATS when for the child it doesn’t mean very much.
For all those that say secondary schools use them as a marker to set levels, they might do if the secondary school is very small but every school I looked at had their own exams as you could have 60 children who scored enough to place them in the top set but the top set only has 30 places.

Then the huge emphasis on getting GCSEs and A levels so that the pupils can get into a university ignores those that are not capable or just don’t want to spend 5 years getting A levels and doing a degree.

Or even the fact that children are being sold a fantasy.
Only 15% of student loans are repaid which means for every 100 people at university only 15 people will ever earn more than £21,000 for enough time to repay the loan. Which if people sat down and thought about whether a degree is worth it they might decide to take a different path in their life.

I doubt any teacher would actually advise a pupil that university might not be the Golden Ticket it once was.

The insistence on English and Maths in order to access any education post 16 is leaving many teens in a void.

You have to be in ft education but in order to access ft education for the most part you have to have GCSE English and Maths.

You can’t go to college because most colleges want GCSEs so the only way is to stay on at the school that failed them in the first place doing subjects they have no interest in for the next 2 years.

We haven’t seen the effects of this policy yet but I don’t think the future looks bright.

Ds has my support and I know his strengths and weaknesses he has little to no hope of passing English GCSE. Dyslexia, dysgraphia only formally diagnosed by the college in April this year. It has taken 10 years for someone to actually sit him down and test him.
I have never minded paying for the Ed Psych as I just wanted him tested.

The college he is at (which I had to visit a lot of other colleges with him) is the only one in our extended area that takes children who didn’t pass any exams as they offer English and Maths as separate lessons.
(Unfortunately it is closing down next year)

Last year as I was waiting for Ds to register himself on his chosen course the day after results day i was aware of many children with their parents coming into the reception to register at the college because they had either failed English or Maths or hadn’t passed enough GCSEs to get into other colleges.

As an example Ds went straight into level 2 with only Maths GCSE.

Other local colleges wanted English and Maths and 3 other subjects at GCSE to get into level 1.

Ds finished his course passing all the exams and practical elements within 2 terms with an average mark of 97.5%

He now needs to get an apprenticeship for a year then start on his level 3 which will be a day release type apprenticeship and then he will be fully qualified.

However he is re taking his GCSE English. If he fails (I am not holding out much hope) then there will be no apprenticeship. No level 3. This is as far as he will be able to go if he stays in the UK.

If he goes abroad though he can qualify at a private college. It isn’t that much money and the only qualification is to speak English to get the student visa. Then he could return to the UK with all the relevant certificates and be employable here.

The whole thing is totally f**ked

I just get the impression that the government want to portray the UK as full of feckless youths and we need to import our work force from abroad as we are too lazy or too stupid to take on the jobs ourselves.

Something isn’t right. In my opinion either it is a giant conspiracy, for what end I don’t know or the politicians that came up with these policies haven’t thought of the future.

Our education system appears to be for those that want to work sat down behind a desk pushing paper around between the hours of 9am -5pm then go home to eat and drink just enough to stop them thinking Then they get up the next and do the exact same thing.

And it all starts in school with the promise of a bright future if they just knuckle down and work hard to pass exams.

LolaSmiles · 04/06/2019 16:31

I doubt any teacher would actually advise a pupil that university might not be the Golden Ticket it once was
We do actually.
We have employers in visiting the school from y9 upwards.
All our students have access to careers advice in different forms.
We get some of our practically minded pupils on day release for some courses.
We do partnerships to help with local apprenticeships.
We don't push people to do A levels.
We offer vocational options post 16.
We have school based programmes for those at risk of being NEET post16.

The university as a golden ticket doesn't come from schools in my experience (if it did then some of my previous schools would have had brilliant conversion to A Level and university but they didnt).

It comes from a largely middle class world view where if you're not sure what you want to do then you go to uni for 3 years and put off the decisions until later. Now there's nothing inherently wrong there, except we see students year in year out who would be better placed developing a practical skill or a foundation degree route with a local company (who would pay their fees and a wage) going on to get unconditional offers from lower ranking universities for a course that will offer them little in terms of academic rigour and little in employment value. University for many isn't considered a valuable educational experience in it's own right. It's 3 years away from home to party and put off making any decisions. And because so many people go now, it doesn't offer the academic edge in many cases.
But that view doesn't come from schools. We're too busy battling crap universities encouraging lazy students not to work by selling D/C grade students an extended gap year with an unconditional offer and money off new laptops.

Oliversmumsarmy · 04/06/2019 16:42

LolaSmiles
But your school sounds like the exception.

For most schools the focus is on GCSEs and A levels.

For a few it is part of their selling point

Oliversmumsarmy · 04/06/2019 17:23

Ds has my support and I know his strengths and weaknesses he has little to no hope of passing English GCSE

Thought I would update.

Ds did his English exam this morning. He was quite positive before hand. He had worked really hard and he was allowed to use a computer.
He knows he has improved since last year (last year he was getting around 4% in his mocks)

He came out quite dejected.

The other half of the exam is later in the week. Unless he does absolutely brilliantly then we are going to have to think about where he goes to from here.

He has to be in education for another year and has gone as far as he can in the career he wanted to do and got excellent marks in.

Not sure where he goes from here. (College abroad will take him when he is 18 so it will have to be next year).

LolaSmiles · 04/06/2019 17:38

Oliversmumsarmy
Offering vocational qualifications is standard for almost all schools in my area, but our careers and enterprise links are stronger than most.

Some schools in our area prioritise vocational over academic to the point where their progress 8 for ebacc is awful, they claw it back by having a really strong open bucket. I have strong feelings about how they have designed their curriculum to game the system a bit, but it's certainly not a case that GCSEs and a levels dominate.

Then again we have a mixture of 11-18, 11-16, further education colleges and stand alone 6th forms in our area so no one place has a monopoly.

LolaSmiles · 04/06/2019 17:40

I should add, I'm not saying the system is perfect. It isn't and there's pockets of really poor practice and poor education, I just don't think the general public have a realistic flavour of what's out there and often what's out there is better than public conceptions.

Oliversmumsarmy · 05/06/2019 00:52

LolaSmiles

Really interested to know what vocational qualifications your school offers as I think I have toured virtually every school in our area when Ds was looking and couldn’t find a single one that had a single vocational lesson apart from PE or drama and even those at GCSE it was more about the academic ability than the practical.

nolongersurprised · 05/06/2019 05:36

Xena

I do teach In an indie so maybe I have more freedom to get pupils to think critically but I would hope that all teachers of secondary age students have the opportunity to encourage their students to challenge and not just accept what is seen at that point in time as ‘truth’.

My 12 year old, year 7 DD just had a history assignment where they were given a range of sources that supported different view points and asked to summarise their preferred perspective (with the appropriate citations). I thought this was a good way of introducing how history can be viewed through varying lenses.