To think the idea that education is state brainwashing is BS

[Echobelly]

It’s a bit of a bugbear of mine that some people insist that schools serve a function of keeping young people docile and unquestioning. I mean, I was educated a while ago now, but at a state school, and the absolute #1 thing I remember from history was being taught always to question the bias of your sources. Hardly the actions of system dedicated to preventing children from questioning authority. I’m pretty sure kids these days are not being taught ‘Yay! The British Empire was Great’ or ‘The government is fantastic, questioning it is disloyal’, by those notorious right-wingers, teachers.

With DD starting secondary next term, I’d be interested to know if anyone does feel from their own child’s current experience, that schools are somehow attempting to beat them down into dumb subservience? As most of the people I hear espousing the view don’t seem to be those with kids in schools currently.

I guess people also go ‘Oh, but it’s all this “obedience” and following “rules”’ which I think is also kind of bullshit because people actually are intelligent enough to see the difference between rules needed to get along with things like learning, and things in the world that are profound injustices. You can follow the school rules all your educational life and still go on to protest against government abuses of human rights or whatever – it doesn’t mean you get conditioned to accept everything you’re told to think or do.

Don’t get me wrong, too many young people are ill-served by underfunded schools, but lack of critical thinking is probably more to do with distracting media and the rampant self-interest it promotes then schools being some wicked hand of The State.

When we were looking round at senior schools for ds a couple of things made me raise an eyebrow.

Firstly the list of things that would land a child in exclusion (which seemed to be sitting in a cubicle reading a book or in some cases staring at a wall) was long and full of minor infractions. I think I would have spent my whole senior school in a cubicle if I had attended school now.

The second thing that really got me was every single school saying in yr 12 and 13 there was no school uniform but it was expected that the children would dress "office ready"

Schools come across as exam factories that educate children to go and work in an office.

I agree about The Michaela School.
It does come across as all children are bad and the only way to get them through school is to take out all the iniative and personality from the children

I do believe that schools make children docile and unquestioning. Not in the example you have given, but in a very passive way towards the responsibility of their learning. All children learn in schools is how to pass an exam and how to survive in a school setting. The real world is totally different. Peer pressure in schools is brutal, in the work place, not so much. If you question authority, are late, attendance is poor, there is not an awful lot a school can do. Do that in the work place and you will soon find yourself without a job.
If you are lacking in motivation, you are nurtured, mentored and encouraged. This will not happen in the work place.
I can't really comment on whether children are encouraged to think for themselves but I can confirm that children are being taught to have little responsibility for their own learning and outcomes. We are spoon feeding them and not allowing them to feel the consequences of their actions. As a consequence, there are more mental health issues at secondary and higher education than ever before. They find it hard to self motivate when they leave the school setting and get to University and can't cope.

Re: heavy discipline schools a la Michaela, yes, I am uneasy with those. Not on the brainwashing front, more they're just not nice to be at - we decided not to put the best performing local secondary on list for DD as we really did not like how disciplinarian it was, nor that the kids showing us round kept saying 'We're not allowed to do that' and couldn't tell us why not

I don't think even that education guarantees pliable drones, but it's not not a good place to be, plus I fear it risks casting nice but disorganised or less attentive kids as troublemakers because they get punished for those behaviours when they're not intentional. But that's another thread...

nor that the kids showing us round kept saying 'We're not allowed to do that' and couldn't tell us why not

Like what?

Eat lunch at the tables in the playground, that's the example I remember specifically. My husband asked a few more questions that received the same answer

Echobelly

I wouldn’t worry about that. I would just infer there has been a litter problem, seagulls and rats. I can’t see any sinister motivation.

I wouldn’t send my girls to a government school ever again been that it is like a factory trying to produce the same over and over again with no encouragement to be different.
Any differences the children had was quickly jumped on and stamped out from the experience I did have with the local school.
Even looking at there many crazy rules it’s all about making them the same as each other.
A very sad system.
Though looking at many of the teachers I wouldn’t trust them in charge of a walk of snails let alone a school of children

People confuse strong behaviour expectations and a robust curriculum with brainwashing.

The idea that rules in school will turn children into robots is the sort of nonsense I see on alternative parenting pages or from the parents of students who are routinely breaking rules (usually because home have told their darlings to ignore any rule they don't like)

Equally, the idea of challenge everything/opinions are what matters is also a foolish response (but often spouted).

Not all opinions are equal. It is important to teach students to be critical thinkers, to pick apart arguments, explore debates, but you can only do that if they know enough to ask interesting questions or know enough about a topic to meaningfully critique it. Anything else is just feeding the ego of 'but my parents told me my opinion and creative expression is the most important thing (often overlapping with parents who think permitting their child to disrupt a lesson by arguing back is their child 'showing authority that thry can't expect blind obedience')

The most amazing critical debates I've seen between students are when they have lots of knowledge, the classroom is calm and orderly and they are really asking pertinent questions and interrogating positions.

Alternative parenting has been mentioned a few times. What is wrong with alternative parenting? Standard parenting doesn't seem to be churning out the most stable and resilient little darlings, is it?

Not sure it is state brainwashing but it certainly teaches kids about petty officialdom.

Education in the UK is purely about passing exams, nothing else. Very depressing. As for brainwashing — yes to a certain extent.

People confuse strong behaviour expectations and a robust curriculum with brainwashing

I have no idea about the schools you are involved with but what about the children who don’t fit that mould.

Who can’t keep up with the strong behaviour expectations (I know from touring a few schools I would have been in detention permanently because I couldn’t remember what you could do and what you couldn’t) or weren’t able to keep up with the robust curriculum.

Ds went to a normal primary school.

By year 2 they had a curriculum in place that apparently was what the teacher had to teach.
Unfortunately Ds couldn’t read or write at this stage. The curriculum might have been taught but a few like Ds couldn’t join in as they couldn’t read what was on the board.

Education in the UK is geared towards being average to good at everything.

If you fall outside that margin then you are on your own.

Agree schools are like exam factories and getting the child to university and the pervading thought that if you don’t get a degree you can’t get a good job.

Even on here there seems to be a thought that to better oneself then going back into education is the answer.

If only 15% of people who go to university ever earn enough to pay back their student loan that leaves 85% of people who never earn more than £21000 for long enough to pay back their loan.

Has no one asked the serious question of was going to university worth it.

This thread is very black and white about schools in the UK and doesn't match my DCs' experience at all!

DD2 is at a big state comp rated good. No draconian Michaela-style behaviour rules. No crazy uniform rules. A remarkable amount of flexibility and freedom in class. And if her history revision is anything to go by, there is definitely room in the curriculum to support different positions - as long as it is backed by argument and sources, that is.

DD1 is at the school's 6th form. No uniform and no expectation of office suits, just a basic dress code that boils down to clean, decent and without offensive slogans. Many students with crazy coloured hair, Goth or alternative clothing and so on. Again, lots of scope for reasoned disagreement on the curriculum.

As for 'the establishment Liberal position' - the school doesn't tolerate racism, homophhobia or religious bigotry. As indeed it should not. Both my daughters are gay - and they feel safe to be out and open about this. I see this as a HUGE positive, and I would judge anyone who had an issue with it.

pointythings I think the school your dc go to is in a very small minority.

Because of where we live, (strange catchment area where the nearest schools are not in our catchment area and the ones that are, are situated 4+ miles away we can basically go anywhere as if the LA insisted on a catchment area school then they would have to pay for a taxi).

We visited a lot of schools (probably around 20) and not one was anything like how you describe

Oliversmumsarmy I do think we are very lucky - we aren't in a particularly leafy area at all and the school is part of a MAT, but it's one that's run by people who are or have been teachers, so that probably helps.

The creeping Michaela-isation of UK schools is a big problem and I do hate the assumption that children are inherently bad and must be treated with harsh discipline from the word go. However, the UK curriculum does demand argument and thought in subjects like the Humanities and English literature, not just regurgitation.

The vast majority of people who I see spouting this are the ones whose little darlings have got into trouble for not following rules on uniform/hairstyles etc rather than questioning anything they are learning.

The vast majority of people who I see spouting this are the ones whose little darlings have got into trouble for not following rules on uniform/hairstyles etc rather than questioning anything they are learning.

Well I'm not, my kid isn't even at school yet.

Oliversmumsarmy
That sounds to me like a poorly designed curriculum, but not evidence of brainwashing.
Eliza9919
It's a sliding scale for alternative parenting. There any many ways to parent well, obviously.
In my experience the people I know who are members of lots of pages/groups and spend their time regularly sharing images about how boundaries are bad, creativity is good etc ate also the ones who think any time their child is pulled up it's someone else's fault. It's the same when you see the inevitable uniform / detention threads on here and many posters will turn up cheerleading the child to argue back under the claim of 'its important to question things', the thing is it's not interesting critique 99% of the time, it's mindless argumentative defiance.

pointythings
It's possible to have strong behaviour standards and a happy classroom without insisting on silent corridors etc though. Some places are more prescriptive in their behaviour approach than I would choose, but that's not brainwashing.

The thing about argument vs regurgitation is that it's not enough in the exams to spout isolated facts and (that I'm aware of) schools aren't suggesting that's all there is to it. Even if I don't operate in the same framework or use the same approaches as some of the schools mentioned, learning facts is only part of their curriculum.

When the changes first happened at GCSE I was strongly against them because I thought it would lead to bland rote learning and no real debate. I've been proven wrong. For literature It's actually been quite liberating because the more students have stored and can access (and that can be done in many ways), the more interesting their questions are, the more nuanced their arguments are, more critical their views are. Some of the best teaching I've done has been since that shift in focus.

From my experiences, i think the education system is designed to teach only what the 'powers that be' want you to know and further's their agenda of controlling how you think.
They omit a lot of important details which would make you question the status quo of the kind of systems and 'norms' with which we are brought up with - and keeps you woefully in ignorance of many things.
Colonialism and it's actual impact on the indigenous people is skimmed over.

I was educated in the UK. I'm asian and a product of two cultures.
School and college taught me how big and powerful the British Empire used to be - we learnt all about the white people who fought in the wars, the sacrifices they made.
All events commemorating/celebrating were focused only on white people.

If it wasn't for my own family/relatives who knew/lived through the wars and were able to share their stories, i would never have known the huge and equal - part that my ancestors played which helped win the wars.
Science and Maths - again all taught as though white people were the first/only ones to invent/discover it - conveniently failing to mention the contributions from other cultures/religions etc.
They also very conveniently failed to mention anything about Nikolai Tesla and his inventions and thinking.....obviously they don't want us knowing the real truth.

As i've got older i can't help but think how much different our society would be - especially with regards race relations - if the REAL and WHOLE truth of our world history was taught and commemorated without the preconceived bias, prejudice and selective agendas of the 'powers that be'.

Lola I'm not sure why you're addressing me - I've basically agreed with everything you say. I hate silent corridors and all that, and I have two DDs doing A levels and GCSEs respectively - and they are expected to do a lot of critical thinking.
Silent what you are arguing for is including teaching the history of science in addition to science itself. It's a worthy subject, but it would have to be a separate subject on an already very crowded curriculum. I'm not sure that adding those things into the science curriculum adds much value. There's an argument for it to be included at A level though.

It also has to be said that I am inherently suspicious of people who use phrases like 'the real truth'.

pointythings
I misunderstood what you were saying, sorry. I thought you were implying that because there needs to be all critique and argument there's no need for fact retrieval so things like knowledge organisers etc are poor (presented as regurgitation as I've heard that before).

Sorry about that.

Is anyone else struck by how joyless school is nowadays though?

I’m not thirty yet but I remember primary school being a wonderful place - fun, exciting, creative. There were no exams. I wasn’t taught to read in a ridiculously technical way. We read books outside in the sunshine and learned all the names of wild flowers and trees and birds. It was fabulous. It inspired a love of learning, an interest in everything. Yet my DC have rigid lesson plans, every boring lesson is the same, they’re constantly tested. If I could possibly homeschool them, I would.

School and college taught me how big and powerful the British Empire used to be - we learnt all about the white people who fought in the wars, the sacrifices they made.
All events commemorating/celebrating were focused only on white people.
If it wasn't for my own family/relatives who knew/lived through the wars and were able to share their stories, i would never have known the huge and equal - part that my ancestors played which helped win the wars

You do know that the curriculum changes each year. Dd learned about Nigeria and it’s politics in the 1970s in English.
My history lessons focussed on Ancient Egypt.

Science and Maths - again all taught as though white people were the first/only ones to invent/discover it - conveniently failing to mention the contributions from other cultures/religions etc.
They also very conveniently failed to mention anything about Nikolai Tesla and his inventions and thinking.....obviously they don't want us knowing the real truth

I didn’t do Science but did Maths which involved things like how to calculate the area of a circle.
I don’t see how teaching about the people who came up with these calculations is praising Colonialism especially when most of the calculations came from Ancient Greek
Mathematicians

Standard parenting doesn't seem to be churning out the most stable and resilient little darlings, is it?

Well it seemed to until the “participation medals/we don’t use the word no/no discipline/over think absolutely everything” crew came along. There was no such thing as “parenting” 40 years ago but is it a coincidence that now it’s a huge source of angst for parents (mums) that people are complaining about youngsters lacking resilience? That would suggest that it’s actually “new fangled” ideas causing the lack of resilience and possibly kids picking up on parental anxiety.

Normal pre-parenting-parenting aka the 70s/80s has raised an entire spectrum of people. Most people will be average but in the social media age I wonder if it’s ok to be average any more?

Unexceptional parents probably raised the majority of the exceptional people we know.

Also someone’s got to drive the van to deliver the wooden toys or operate the till to sell the vegan sausages 🤷‍♀️so long as it is someone else’s child doing it. It’s elitism on those groups that’s all, and a fear of being boring.

Is anyone else struck by howjoylessschool is nowadays though?
I think you have a point on primary. I think I preferred my primary days to the test focused approach of today (not a criticism of primary colleagues by the way, more the system).

In terms of secondary though, I'd much rather be in secondary now where I teach than the school I went to in many respects. Now I've qualified as a teacher I look back on my own secondary education and realised that whilst I did well out of It, many others didn't and a good few years were a waste of time (most of y7-9). I can remember hardly learning anything in some subjects but was regularly put in groups for some spurious group work project where the quiet hard working girls were paired with disruptive boys and used to manage behaviour, we spent time filling in personality questionnaires about how we liked to learn (and it was bad news if you had disruptive students in your class bevause now every lesson was heavily competition and action based for the 'kinaesthetic learners' with little regard for the fact some of us wanted to learn stuff rather than make skyscrapers out of jelly babies and spaghetti in a non-link to earthquakes).
School now does so much more in terms of PSHE and life skills and yet there's always people complaining that "I had to learn algebra but nobody told me if I spend more than I have then I can get into debt".

I'm not sure I'd like to have the same social media pressures and mental health pressures as today's teens, but sometimes I find myself wondering how much social norms and a shift in parenting style has limited resilience.