To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

[prettyinpink23x]

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

That there are many cases of false rape accusations is beyond a doubt, but there are many guilty rapists walking the streets through lack of evidence, good defence lawyers and possibly biased jurors.

False equivalence. Statistically there aren't 'many' false accusations, it's quite rare. There are, however, vast numbers of unconvicted rapists walking around. You doubtless know one.

Let's not pretend the numbers are even approximately the same. Since the President of the United States is on tape saying he sexually assaults women, let's not pretend it 'ruins lives' as a matter of course either.

It's so hard to report a rape.
It's not something the majority of victims do lightly.
I think the calls to 'name the accuser' are the new 'burn the witch'.
There's no evidence it would improve things.

I can't think of any other crimes where the victim is cross examined either.

Something needs to be done. We're at the stage where rape is tacitly accepted as being a crime that the perpetrator will very rarely be punished for.

I really don't see what could be done though.

I'd favour a system with three specially trained judges in rape and sexual assault cases, rather than a jury. And child sexual assault as well.

But it would still come down to one persons word against another's. In the circumstances of this case where this woman seemed to be enjoying his company first in a public place and then went back to a hotel with him, I would imagine it would be impossible to for any group of people, even specially trained judges to say what did or didn't happen in that room. It's utterly dreadful if she was raped, it's dreadful for the man if she lied but I see no way of improving things other than for men and women to not put themselves in the situation.

The double standards though are pretty shocking .
So because he was accused of rape the woman must be telling the truth and the man lying even though he’s been found not guilty .. so what about all these woman who make these false claims ? Or are they so damaged as females that it’s ok and the men must still be to blame somehow because they’re ,you know .. men

It is absolutely not true that men's lives are ruined because of rape allegations. It is a complete myth.

Complete and utterly unsubstantiable rubbish.

When any extremely serious crime is involved, the effects on the lives of the victims of that category of crime are obviously devastating, and can prove ruinous.

When the victim is not actually taken seriously, or even accused of being a liar or a fantasist, and the offender is not prosecuted and/or convicted, the devastation is still worse - and they (the victim) will frequently be 'punished', spurned and distrusted for years afterwards for having allegedly 'lied' about such a serious crime ("I wouldn't risk going anyway near her, mate - she's nothing but trouble, that one.")

Therefore, why on earth would you think that innocent men who are wrongly accused of the same crime would not suffer for it in any way?

Many people would remain ever suspicious of him and you get the ubiquitous hard-of-thinking 'there's no smoke without fire' brigade who automatically assume that he must have been guilty. Marriages, relationships, reputations, careers etc. can be destroyed in the aftermath of a fabricated rape allegation.

Rape is an absolutely evil crime and there are a great many wicked men out there who, outrageously, completely get away with it - but that doesn't mean we should infantilise all women by suggesting that being female renders you entirely incapable of ever doing terrible, evil things; whilst supposing that it's such common, everyday behaviour to be expected from all men ('boys will be boys' and all that) that good men and their loved ones and associates, of both sexes, wouldn't be devastated long-term by their having being accused of it.

X-posted with Pk37

@Pk37 Its not about gender. If you read the details of the case it does make him look guilty. Nobody is saying hes definitely lying and is a rapist what people are trying to do is show how the legal system is flawed and challenge the common view that if hes 'cleared' then he didn't do anything wrong. People are also saying that it is rare for women to make up false accusations and that it is extremely hard for the evidence to pass the threshold test to get it to court. With this in mind it does suggest he is guilty not simply because he is a man. But the bigger point is the flawed legal system and criticism of the victim.

This picture is old and the numbers have become even worse for women, BTW.

And Sleeping that's not the case. There are many cases (a certain footballer for example) where no consent was offered or sought, in the footballer's own testimony! An appeal found him not guilty when he admitted he didn't have consent. And there was a video. It often isn't her word against his.

It is absolutely not true that men's lives are ruined because of rape allegations. It is a complete myth.

Well if I imagine the good men in my life being falsely accused of rape, I think it would have a huge effect on them and their families and relationships. Its ridiculous to think it wouldn't.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll You only have to read this thread to know that his life has been ruined.

so what about all these woman who make these false claims

The overwhelming majority probably end up in the 98.3% of U.K. rape cases that aren’t even prosecuted, don’t you think?

Also “all these women” - I take it you have a source to back up the idea this is a common problem?

Have you ever been raped? Had a rape kit done? Been interrogated about it?

Think it’s common for women to choose to go through this when it’s not true?

I’ve been raped by one man, sexually abused as a child by another, and been the victim of serious sexual assault by three other men. I’ve never been able to report any of them. All of them are married now. Some of them have children.

And accused mens’ lives ruined - like Brett Donald Trump?

Fuck it, even convicted men - whole lives ruined? Like Brock fucking Turner? Like the millionaire who recently raped and murdered his girlfriend but got off with manslaughter because she dared to enjoy a bit of BDSM?

Wake the fuck up.

I’ll repeat - ONLY 1.7% OF RAPE CASES IN THE U.K. ARE EVEN PROSECUTED

I was going to say what pk37 and webuiltthisbuffet said. Of course someone can have their lives ruined through false allegations. Yes it's shit when someone has been raped and the perpetrator gets away with it but some people are actually innocent.

*like Bret Kavanaugh and Donald Trump, that should say.

Man are more likely to be raped themselves than falsely accused. So why are women scary, not other men?

An appeal found him not guilty when he admitted he didn't have consent

But have you actually given consent every time you have had sex? How many people actually ask, sex doesn't generally happen like that.

PK37 there aren’t all these women who make false claims - and, let’s not forget shall we, that men will also be making false rape claims by your logic.

I’m going to be honest and say I suspect many rape cases go thus: couple meet whilst out, have some drinks and enjoy each others company. Retreat for some maybe unspoken, consensual sex. The man either takes it too far by:

• not stopping when the woman either says no or changes her mind after consenting

• begins consensual sex but changes the form of that sex into something the woman doesn’t want (anal/ no contraption for example)

• has a propensity for “rough sex” that the woman did not consent to and views as violence.

In many of these circumstances the woman and the law consider her raped but the general public, rapist and his friends and family see this as a blurred line, more about communication than power.

As a society we are very much in the infancy of sexual etiquette and holding men responsible for the sexual decisions they make against the woman’s wishes. We are immature, and that is reflected in the justice system, particularly in a jury formed of the general public.

These men can easily convince a jury, a court etc of their innocence because they honestly believe themselves to be.
And that’s what women are up against

'Yes it's shit when someone has been raped and the perpetrator gets away with it but some people are actually innocent.'

Shit seems a very mild way of putting it.

People fail to understand the the lowest rate of false reporting in any crime is in sexual offences. The difficulty of proving these cases, due to the very nature of them, makes them yet more upsetting for the survivor. Unless a reporter is proven to have actively conspired to fraudulently accuse someone of an offence, these people are in the wrong.

You are not being unreasonable, I'm so glad there are people like you.

As a man I would also want to protect myself from false accusations which may be made by putting myself in that situation.

This.
Oritze was 31, not his first rodeo. He has a 4 year old son you would expect him to be teaching about consent to when older. Aside from the fact that two men taking two women back to the same hotel room is...a choice, when one of those women is so intoxicated she ends up having blackouts then clearly a choice has been made that is not in that person's best interests.
Should he have been named? If I recall correctly, many thought not because celebrities like Alexandra Burke and Marvin and Rochelle Hulmes were already tweeting in support of him last year ahead of any court evidence being heard.

@SleepingSloth If a girl is described as a 'zombie' because she is so drunk, as a man, would you think it would be okay to have sex with her? . Now, when you are sober and someone consents and then removes the consent or something like that I understand how the definition could be confused in rare circumstances. If someone is completely wasted of course they can't consent even if they scream yes before it. That is part of the law.

I wouldn’t agree that men’s lives aren’t ruined by false rape claims though. Many employers give their prospective staff a quick google and c’mon, who would then go on to hire an accused rapist?

Deathgrip Do you not think you are a bit biased then? No ones denying that guilty people have gotten away with it, but innocent men have had their lives ruined by people making false claims. Its not common, but it has happened.

And in this case, we simply don't know. Was she out and out raped? Did she have drunken sex and regretted it? Did she have drunken sex, perhaps too drunk to consent but he was also drunk and not in full control either? We don't know.

If there was clear evidence that the accuser had lied/made it up then there are plenty of legal comebacks against her - from wasting police time to perjury. If the book isn't thrown at her for one of these then it is likely that it wasn't obvious that she was lying and so she should be given the benefit of the doubt and maintain her anonymity.

Chances are she isn't lying and there just wasn't sufficient evidence to convict. If that is the case she is having to cope with the trauma of going through the court case, seeing her rapist walk free and really doesn't need her name splashed across the papers on top of that.

ONLY 1.7% OF RAPE CASES IN THE U.K. ARE EVEN PROSECUTED

And that 1.7% obviously only refers to reported rapes. God knows what the true number is. But people know there's little point in reporting their attacker as it's unlikely anything will come of it, except further trauma for the victim.

Apologies, 29 when accused, 31 when arrested. But still old enough to know what enthusiastic consent should entail.