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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

678 replies

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 14:48

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 28/05/2019 22:40

out

No idea...it seems perfectly clear to me

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 22:41

@Gth1234 ive literally explained before this that was not the point of the thread Ive made no assumptions. Ive said he was found not guilty people on twitter are saying those things, that is unfair and its angered me given that just because he was found not guilty does not mean hes innocent. If you have that much faith in the jury system I doubt you have personal experience with it, its known to be flawed because of the beyond reasonable doubt aspect and if you look at the statistics in this thread then you’ll see that. As Ive said my rapist had raped someone a year before me and then A COUPLE OF MONTHS after a jury acquitted him he raped me. This girl was unconscious before me and was raped by him I was extremely drunk. He was sober both times. The police said to me the jury believed he did it but there was some doubt and they struggled but couldnt convict so dont tell me the jury and legal system is perfect because it certainly isnt. Now my rapist can do whatever he pleases and go to whatever nightclub and prey on women all over again. He is not innocent. He was found not guilty. That is the difference.

OP posts:
Gth1234 · 28/05/2019 22:42

@deathgrip
@outofinspiration

yes, I did take the OP's post the wrong way. I have read it more carefully now, and I understand the points you are making, and the OPs intention.

Deathgrip · 28/05/2019 22:42

Several high profile cases have been able to go to court because naming the alleged abuser has enabled many other victims to come forward.

A family member’s former sporting coach was recently convicted of child abuse on a massive scale after one brave victim reported her abuse - when that was publicised, multiple other brave victims came forward, corroborated his MO and grooming techniques and the similarity of the abuse they all experienced meant he went to prison for a long time (thank god).

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 28/05/2019 22:42

Having known 3 falsely accused men I think YABU

HAHAHA. OH MY GOD. You CAN’T be that naive surely??

Exactly the same attitude held by those who scoff at and ridicule women who report having been raped. "What, even though you were wearing next to nothing, had a skinful and then you agreed to go back to his house with him?! As if!!" Not helpful to anybody in the least.

The woeful lack of rape cases that actually make it to court and then the shamefully low rate of convictions isn't somehow balanced out by a mob assumption that all men must be rapists the instant anybody makes an allegation against them. Vastly improved criminal and court procedures leading to conviction rates to reflect actual crimes are what we need - not throwaway 'hearsay-as-fact'.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 28/05/2019 22:42

Thats good of you to say gth1234

Deathgrip · 28/05/2019 22:46

The woeful lack of rape cases that actually make it to court and then the shamefully low rate of convictions isn't somehow balanced out by a mob assumption that all men must be rapists the instant anybody makes an allegation against them. Vastly improved criminal and court procedures leading to conviction rates to reflect actual crimes are what we need - not throwaway 'hearsay-as-fact'.

No one is saying that. However, I question the likelihood of anyone knowing three men who were falsely accused of rape (unless all from the same incident), and how they would know the accusations were false. The post you quoted mentioned being naive - I can’t say if that poster was naive or not as she shared no details, but my own experiences would certainly give me pause if I knew three men who claim to have been falsely accused when the CPS themselves (who prosecute less than 2% of reported rape cases) put the false accusation figure at 0.62%

Aridane · 28/05/2019 22:47

To reach court, the CPS have to be sure beyond reasonable doubt

Sorry- but I have to correct this. The test is whether there is a “realistic prospect of conviction

Aridane · 28/05/2019 22:47

italics fail

prettyinpink23x · 28/05/2019 22:49

Sorry yes thats what I meant and whether its in public interest etc.

OP posts:
Ghanagirl · 28/05/2019 22:55

@Deathgrip
I want both my children to grow up safe and unharmed.
I don’t believe the alleged victim should be named but I also don’t think Ortize should be demonised by a person who wasn’t in court.
As I mentioned before black men are more likely to be accused of violence particularly when allegations are from white women but black girls and women actually are more likely to be victims and less likely to be believed.
www.google.com/search?q=emmett%20till
He was a child when a racist white woman condemned him to death due to her lies and there’s many similar incidents if you can be bothered to do some research.

Ghanagirl · 28/05/2019 22:57

@Deathgrip
Black lives matter as much as yours!!

Hadenoughofitall441 · 28/05/2019 23:01

This is the problem when your in the media, so various options.
He is guilty and got away with it due to lack of evidence
She’s lying, maybe because she was turned down and didn’t like it....
it’s always gonna be a he said she said. The thing is if she is lying she’s dragged his name through the mud and potentially made it hard for real victims of rape to come forward or even want to try and seek justice. We’ve seen this with other celebrities........ I know girls who have tried to ruin a guys life because he simply turned her down and she saw red. We will never know the full story....

Hithere12 · 28/05/2019 23:21

Exactly the same attitude held by those who scoff at and ridicule women who report having been raped

Oh ffs. Do you know how statistically unlikely that would be?

Around 3% of rape accusations are false so to know three who are accused which have all been faked is pretty statistically impossible unless you know tens of thousands of people.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 28/05/2019 23:30

Exactly the same attitude held by those who scoff at and ridicule women who report having been raped

Oh ffs. Do you know how statistically unlikely that would be?

Around 3% of rape accusations are false so to know three who are accused which have all been faked is pretty statistically impossible unless you know tens of thousands of people.

It would indeed be extremely unlikely, but unlikely is not the same as impossible. I just think that, in all cases of alleged crime, it's much better to examine all of the evidence rather than going on probabilities and 'I reckon'. You don't know what circles the poster mixes in - they could have worked for the police for 40 years, specialising in such cases.

Taking that as our yardstick, people could point to the shockingly tiny rate of rape cases that end in a conviction and, on that basis, conclude that the overwhelming likelihood is that any given woman who reports a rape 'must' almost certainly be lying.

MrsTerryPratchett · 29/05/2019 00:57

This was a discussion on the feminist board recently and people asked for ways in which conviction rates could be improved and no one could really answer it

I've suggested a few things on this thread decomposing. Unsurprisingly you are just telling women off and not listening. Again.

movingwiththelightson · 29/05/2019 01:04

Yep I can’t believe the amount of people who have been commenting this in various online places.

No woman would EVER report a rape if it was a case of ‘well if there isn’t enough evidence then I’m going to be named and shamed myself and have my life ruined even more’

Can you imagine what it would actually mean?

HelenaDove · 29/05/2019 01:07

Couple of names on this thread that im really not surprised to see.

Deathgrip · 29/05/2019 01:11

@GhanaGirl Of course black lives matter as much as mine (not that mine is white or black either, but that’s irrelevant - they all matter).

If you’d read what I’d written rather than selectively reading my comments, I have done my research. I know the state of the legal system and the racism inherent in that. I have said as much.

My point was that this case would have been prosecuted regardless of race since they had independent witnesses stating that she was heavily intoxicated, and the testimony of at least one of the defendants is concerning.

This is not one of the many tragic cases where a black person is stopped and searched solely because of their race, harassed by police because of their race, prosecuted where a white person would not have been, found guilty where a white person would not have been, given a harsher sentence etc. We know from recent reports that drug searches and prosecutions are overwhelmingly against young black males where actually those most likely to be carrying drugs are young white males. In America, young black men with minor drug offences make up a huge percentage of the prison population, and that’s not even getting into police brutality here and in the US.

I am equally outspoken about every high profile rape / sexual violence case where the same comments about the victim come up, wherein most of the defendants are white. I’ve personally mentioned two such cases in this thread alone.

We must strive to eradicate racism from the legal system and from society in general. That doesn’t mean not prosecuting people of colour in situations where white people would also be prosecuted.

I worry about your childrens’ future too, as I worry about my own childrens’ future. I would appreciate you not implying that any of my comments come from a place of racial discrimination when that’s absolutely not the case.

AutumnColours9 · 29/05/2019 01:41

*Having known 3 falsely accused men I think YABU

Aye right!

Were you present at the time of the alleged offences? Have the accusers been prosecuted and found guilty of falsely accusing? How do you know these men?*

  1. Daughter's best friend's mum who freely admitted she wanted to get back at him for affairs and used extreme parental alienation and escalating the accusations. He won custody due to the lies..daughter confessed that she was making up due to mum..
  2. Family member who had proof that he wasnt even in the same place at the time of accusation and screenshots of the threats to him. She stalked him like crazy for months and threatened any girl that came near..
  3. Very similar to the above but a friend of DD. She did apologise in the end but not before putting the lad through hell.

My local force do not press charges for false accusers in general...

analieninblackburn · 29/05/2019 01:48

I think Ortise Williams , has suffered enough, not enough evidence / not guilty means just that . His career is finished . I don't know enough about the case to comment further .

analieninblackburn · 29/05/2019 01:51

@MrsTerryPratchett the guy is NOT GUILTY. we are not privy to the reasons why the jury delivered this verdict . But we have a judicial system that we have to respect . The reporting is correct .

MrsTerryPratchett · 29/05/2019 02:07

The guy was found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of this offense.

We have a judicial system. It doesn't work in the case of rape. Why do I have to respect it? I get why I have to abide by the law, it being the law. But respecting a system that leaves the vast majority of rape survivors without any justice, drags women through shit to do it, and seems incapable of convicting men who themselves admit they didn't have consent? Nope.

BTW, I have been speaking about statistics. I know little of Ortise Williams' case.

analieninblackburn · 29/05/2019 02:09

@MrsTerryPratchett , how should the system be changed in order to convict more perpetrators?

MrsTerryPratchett · 29/05/2019 02:12

I've answered that question twice so far. RTFT.

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