To be angry about the Oritse Williams rape case?

[prettyinpink23x]

He's been found not guilty today by a Jury.

So many people on twitter are saying 'name and shame the woman, she's lied' 'she deserves a prison sentence'. This is infuriating! Do these people not realise that 'not guilty' does not equate with innocent and it doesn't mean she's lied?

Is it unreasonable for me to be angry about this?

He’s been found innocent so we should leave it at that.
Black men are disproportionately accused of sex crimes whilst most perpetrators are actually white.

And you’re saying that the answer to that is “oh well, women just need to bear the brunt of it”. Tough shit, basically? Do you understand that there is no deterrent whatsoever for a man in private doing exactly what he wants to you?

Did you read the CPS paper I posted? Why is that quote concerning? The point is, if there are false allegations, there’d be insufficient evidence of lack of consent to pursue and it wouldn’t even make it past charging in almost every case where this happens. So only a tiny number of not guilty verdicts could possibly be from false allegations because there wouldn’t be anywhere near sufficient evidence to pursue the case.

We will never have a system where false allegations don’t exist, and they need to be weeded out. The system we have goes so far the other way that less than 2% of cases even get prosecuted. And still your concern is about false allegations, not the men who go about raping and assaulting women with impunity.

Why do you think they have the data to quantify it? If we could read minds then we wouldn’t have a problem convicting rapists would we? The only problem would be where we would put them all.

And most sex crime victims are women whilst most perpetrators are men. So..

But why are they not prosecuted, and how can that be remedied?

For a start, we can stop using the fact that women have sex lives, social lives, previous sexual history and own lacy underwear as a reason to disbelieve their allegations.

In this case, the fact that the woman had allegedly discussed “bisexuality, sexual stuff and orgies” meant that a jury believed a man when he said he thought he could touch her genitals while she was having sex with someone else.

That same man said he thought that the intoxicated woman being penetrated “wasn’t enjoying it” and he thought the answer to that was to join in and touch her genitals without asking permission, rather than suggesting to his friend that maybe he should stop penetrating the woman.

I can see a good few things right there that could be changed to a) prevent sexual assault and b) convict those who are guilty of it.

Black men are disproportionately accused of sex crimes whilst most perpetrators are actually white

Black men are disproportionately accused, prosecuted and convicted of various crimes and that’s not acceptable. Do you honestly believe his race was a factor in this case? Have you read the evidence given by the men accused?

And still your concern is about false allegations, not the men who go about raping and assaulting women with impunity.

Really? Says who? I am on a thread that is basically casting aspersions against a man who has been found not guilty. Which is why I am asking about false allegations. Why does that mean that I'm not concerned about the low conviction rate for rape?

And you are assuming that all of the "not guilty" verdicts were wrong and that actually the men were guilty just not proven - which is probably not correct either. Within that will be some who are entirely innocent.

The only hope rape victims have for justice is to kill their rapists. Because even if a rapist gets convicted for a few years or so, all the humiliation and retraumatising the victim has to go through is just not worth it. They get a few years at the most and then they will be out to rape again.

OP what do you mean when you say beyond reasonable doubt is so hard to prove 'these days'?

am on a thread that is basically casting aspersions against a man who has been found not guilty

Its basically a thread saying how stupid people are for assuming the woman is lying and wanting her to be punished

Its yet another example of a thread being derailed by talk of false allegations which is not what the thread was supposed to be about

He’s been found innocent

Nobody is "found innocent". The jurors concluded that his guilt had not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt. That is not close to the same thing as "innocent". The chances of a rape case getting to court where the perpetrator has not committed rape is basically too small to be seen with the naked eye.

@deathgrip thankyou for saying everything Ive wanted to say in this thread

@dexymidnight sorry just a colloquial phrase just seems like the more rape cases I hear the less convictions prosecutors are getting. Feel free to prove me wrong with statistics.

Also I’m appalled at the woman who said she was sexually assaulted and its easy to get a rapist charged because she wasnt lying. How self righteous can you get! I wasnt lying at all and mine didnt. How stupid to just apply your personal circumstance and therefore think it applies to everything.

I also didnt begin this thread to debate is oritse guilty or not. I made it to defend the victim and the ignorant people saying she should be named and deserves prison.

pretty

Yep i got your reasoning behind starting the thread, and for what its worth i agree with you

Innocent until proved guilty, doesn't mean you didn't do it. Cps have to believe it's in public interest, and a reasonable chance of conviction, they have strange ways of making decisions.
Accused are named in case other victims come forward. Victims protected as it is so difficult to go through legal process.
Sorry for anyone falsely accused, but more sorry for women who are not believed for lack of evidence

Thank fuck for deathgrip.

Way too tired for this shit right now.

Twitter is fucking depressing.

I can't even look at Twitter, i know the hard of thinking will be out in force.

@Deathgrip
You now what I’m angry and confused I have two black children boy and girl.
Black boys are routinely demonised yet they are not convicted of sex crimes at any where near the level of young white men.
(Have a look at the racist misogynists at Warwick university)
Black girls are less likely to be believed if they are assaulted and are characterised as sexual beings when they are still in primary school.

I’m appalled at the woman who said she was sexually assaulted and its easy to get a rapist charged because she wasnt lying.

Misogyny depends on women like that for its survival.

@ghanagirl I completely agree that black men are more likely to get accused and convicted but I think specifically with this case if you read the detail anyone white or black would have gone to court for this regardless of skin colour.

I have been raped. I didn’t report because I am a lawyer and I knew what would happen. I just couldn’t face the process and have nothing but love and support for those brave women that do.

The system lets women down. I don’t know how to change it without damaging the innocent till proven guilty principle though

Also in this thread a lot of people are talking about the rate of “false accusations”. It’s a meaningless statistic. How is that worked out? The majority of rape cases fall into his word against hers and no one except those two know what happened. So while yes it is extremely hard to get a conviction for rape, it is also very hard to prove a complaint is false.

Really? Says who? I am on a thread that is basically casting aspersions against a man who has been found not guilty. Which is why I am asking about false allegations. Why does that mean that I'm not concerned about the low conviction rate for rape?

I’m not casting aspersions against him. I don’t know if he’s guilty or not. I know that a court verdict doesn’t impact whether something happened or didn’t happen, only whether it can be proven or not. That’s not a specific comment on this case, it’s just reality. I have concerns, having read the court testimony, about the actions of two men who by their own words admit to acting in a way that is not consistent with consensual sex, but I haven’t seen the whole transcript so I can’t say what verdict I would have reached.

And you are assuming that all of the "not guilty" verdicts were wrong and that actually the men were guilty just not proven - which is probably not correct either. Within that will be some who are entirely innocent.

No, you’re misrepresenting me. I’m saying that a false allegation is extremely unlikely to meet the CPS charging criteria for pursuing a case.

I’m saying that, when only approximately 17% of sexual offences are reported, and when 98.3% of reported rapes aren’t even prosecuted and (on the last available data) only 36% of those actually end in a prosecution, the vast majority of rapists get away with it.

And that given the process that has to be gone through before they get to trial, it seems likely that a very high proportion (much higher than 36%) of those who meet the evidence threshold are guilty. I can’t comment on individual cases when I haven’t been there.

In a year where the CSEW estimates that over 150,000 rapes occured (144k being women, and over 650k sexual assaults generally), only convicting 1,100 rapists is absolutely unacceptable.

All this calling “what can we do?” is swiftly followed by “well we can’t do that, it’s not fair” to any suggestion - as if the current system is fair.

Fundamentally, if men knew that not ensuring they had enthusiastic consent (proven or not) at all times could likely land them with a criminal record / prison time, what do you think would happen to the number of rape cases?

equally I would advise any man to not take a woman they hardly know back to a hotel especially when drunk

Maybe start there then, since it’s overwhelmingly men who are responsible for the raping.