Was I being racist?

[bullywee]

In work today we were going through a list of names, discussing each person. The vast majority were English names and were easily pronouncable. There was one non-English name which was a difficult to pronounce (to me). Prior to saying this name, I said apologies for any mispronounciation and attempted to pronounce the name.

Anyway, long story short, my line manager pulled me aside after the meeting and said I was being racist because I implied it was "unpronouncable".

Was I? I was genuinely only pre apologising for any mispronounciation but not sure after the verbal bollocking I got.

East Asian romanization of words is very often imperfect. My husband is Korean and a lot of names you would be hard-pushed to see how they are pronounced unless you were familiar with the system.

Take, for example, a name like 'Ui Seong' - there's not even an English sound like 'ui' and how should anyone know that you pronounce 'eo' roughly like the 'u' in cup? Isn't it better to just apologise and hazard a guess than to not even bother trying? And frankly I'd rather that than the whole system of East Asian students taking an English name, which I find way more racist, as if learning their real names is pointless or too much effort.

If I am teaching students from countries where I'm not familiar with the pronunciation, then, if I can, I'll get a list in advance so I can google or ask someone. It's not always possible, but it does help.

People can be racist as fuck about names though. I once had a colleague who saw the name 'Nguyen' which is very common in Vietnam and she went 'what the fuck kind of name is that.' Just rude and unnecessary.

Your manager is an absolute moron. What a ludicrous thing to say!

My husband's native tongue has sounds which don't even exist in English - it quite literally IS unpronounceable in English because unless you were raised speaking this language there are sounds which are almost impossible to pronounce correctly (it's considered one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn for this reason). It's bloody ridiculous to suggest that implying a name is unpronounceable in English is racist. Should we all learn literally every language, sound and name on planet earth? If we don't, are we racist? Are we not allowed to speak the truth (and say that a name happens to be difficult to pronounce in our native language if it is)? I work abroad and my name is very difficult to pronounce in the native language and this is often commented on. I don't pull people aside to call them racists. Ridiculous.

Of course it is not racist to suggest you may be mispronouncing a name, or to ask for clarification. It is polite. I work in countries where people have such a hard time pronouncing my name that I introduce myself by saying my own name incorrectly, but in a way that's accessible to them. Not all sounds exist in all languages.

I would ask your manager what you should have done.

I’m interested to know what @teaandcrisps thinks you should or could have done, too.

Definitely not being racist OP, you apologised in advance. I had never come across the name Siobhan and when I used to teach had to ask my students how to pronounce it. My surname is a tongue twister and I am really not bothered how it's pronounced. Your line manager was being unreasonable

You could also speak to the person in question and ask if they thought you were mocking their name. Perhaps try complained?

How are people so very sure there was nothing remotely racist about this incident? Were you there?

@LimeKiwi - Never worked in Lewisham council, have you?

@VladmirsPoutine - I'm not even sure what the point of that response was other to demonstrate how ignorant you are.

@BertrandRussell could easily say how do you know how racist it was, were you there? Why do you doubt OP, what experience of OP do you have to call her a liar?

I think people responding are going by their own opinion based on their own experiences - often something that some MN users struggle with accepting (other people's points of view based on their personal experiences).

Not sure where you work or live, but there are certainly work places here in London, definitely in the public sector, that you could be pulled up for on the premise of cultural insensitivity for something like that. Majority of people I have encountered with such names understand the difficulty of pronouncing them in English, especially some names from Asian countries that have aspects of the language that doesn't even exist in English, as long as you don't mock or make a joke, I've never encountered anyone who has taken offence to it, but chances are the person pulling OP up was British. Lots of people want to make a name for themselves and tick a box at others expense.

Not racist at all.

I'm a supply teacher, I always appologise before I take a register in case I get the names wrong.

And I always get one name wrong because of names like Sian that can be pronounced 'Sharn' or 'Cyan'.

“BertrandRussell could easily say how do you know how racist it was, were you there? Why do you doubt OP, what experience of OP do you have to call her a liar?”

I don’t. And I wasn’t. And i’m not calling her a liar. I just know that sometimes we all say and do things that can could have been better expressed, or that we don’t realize could be construed as racist or upsetting in some other way. Which is why it is ridiculous, on the strength of what the OP had said, to call the manager a moron, or be certain that he or she is in the wrong. The only way to find out is for the OP to ask.

How are people so very sure there was nothing remotely racist about this incident? Were you there?

Agree with this. It is possible OP was not being racist, and it is possible that she was. Really depends on how she mispronounced it, her tone of voice, and her general attitude.

I've seen plenty of situations where a foreign name is quite easily and obviously pronounced to a native English speaker but the English person acts like it's something so bizarre and it's clearly a bit xenophobic. For example Asian names like Meera or Kiran, I've seen older English people act like they're having a heart attack before attempting to say them. Come on now just read of phonetically and you're 90% of the way there.

Of course the OP could ask her manager..that manager could give her her reasoning..but it could still be that the manager has completely misinterpreted the situation and is accusing OP of something she is not guilty of. It's all highly subjective and OP is at the mercy of that, just as she is recounting it in here for analysis.

My friend has a Polish name. 5 letters, all pronounced as they are in English. Think Magda, but with a different but equally easy first letter. A manager she worked for decided it was too difficult to sat, and told everyone her name was Agnes “ because we can all say that”.

@JQBased what a bizarre comment, no I don't work for Lewisham Council.
If you read my comment properly, I specifically said none of us were there so how the hell are we supposed to know?!
We weren't there, and presumably you weren't too!
Tone and intent is everything. This is one thread we really need the other side to too lol
@BertrandRussell exactly, only way is to ask manager, not us

In the line of work that I used to do, my training was to say the name wrong with confidence rather than right with hesitation.

“ what a bizarre comment, no I don't work for Lewisham Council.”

The “it’s pc gone mad- you can’t say anything these days” use Lewisham Council as their marker, because it was one of the first councils to introduce policies to ensure that people were polite to each other.

Ah right thanks @BertrandRussell - that reference passed me by as I didn't know that
Not as random comment out of the blue as it seemed then.
I was supposed to laugh or it was meant as a "burn"then depending on your viewpoint

The “it’s pc gone mad- you can’t say anything these days” use Lewisham Council as their marker

Be fair - Brent is often used as well, can't stitch every urban legend to one council.

Although from memory the urban legends about the great Baa Baa Black Sheep conspiriacy was tagged first to then Conservative Ealing.

@JQBased You're right. I'm very ignorant about everything "racial". In fact, the other day much like your brother I too ordered a black coffee and now will be facing racially aggravated assault charges. I'm with you - it's nigh on impossible to have a conversation these days without offending a person or even a cup of coffee. Tis the world gone truly mad!

“Be fair - Brent is often used as well, can't stitch every urban legend to one council.“

I’m old enough to remember the glory days of the GLC........

I agree with PP about the idea of people from the Far East having to use English names, presumably because they were ordered to by their employer.

Actually in China when children start studying English they have to either choose an English name or the teacher gives them one. They only use that name internationally. I worked in a company with a lot of Chinese people and that's what they told me when I asked.

I grew up around foreign students learning English, as my parents ran a language school. Believe me, other nationalities have the same problem, they struggled to get their tongues around English names. I also found that people struggled to say my name when I studied in France for a year. It didn’t faze me tbh, it wasn’t nearly as bad as having my surname mocked when I was in school.

I think we tend to make heavy weather about foreign sounding names than other nationalities do. That’s hardly surprising, sadly, when you consider how lazy English people are about learning other languages, now that is embarrassing.