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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that a Chinese “social credit” system might’ve the answer to saving the planet?

74 replies

BogstandardBelle · 20/05/2019 18:59

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/china-bans-23m-discredited-citizens-from-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

AIBU to think that this kind of system is going to be needed to change behaviour to the extent required to meet the challenge posed by climate change?

Definitely playing devils advocate: I’ve no desire to see this level of social control imposed here. But the Chinese Communist Party doesn’t need to win any popularity contests, and with a system like this in place, they could easily achieve net zero emissions (from individuals at least) if they wanted to.

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Outoutout · 20/05/2019 20:05

The issue is too many people. It's literally that simple. Reduce the number of people and you reduce the levels of pollution.

But nobody wants to have such a difficult conversation. It's easier to faff about with pointless, irrelevant "targets" and agreements on "climate change".

It makes people feel better about the fact that they aren't really doing anything. It makes us feel less guilty.

We dont need targets. We need to stop having children. That's all. Just stop breeding.

Hopeygoflightly · 20/05/2019 20:11

That’s a bit like saying North Korea’s wholesale torture and murder of its own citizens in prison camps is doing wonders for the world population by helping to keep the numbers down...

BogstandardBelle · 21/05/2019 06:48

outoutout there’s no reason why number of children couldn’t be included in the criteria: gain some credit for 1 or no children, 0 for 2, lose credit for more than two.

Hopey I don’t think it’s mandatory to include torture and murder as deterrents. For most of MN being refused a mortgage on that 5bed house, or not getting your children into the best school would probably suffice.

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ladyvimes · 21/05/2019 06:51

Birth rates across the world are actually decreasing so it’s not a population issue!!

MIdgebabe · 21/05/2019 06:59

You are nuts! THE social credits ban people from travelling who do not fit the mould. Imagine who would be banned if Farage was in control. Women ? ANyone who ever voted labour or got a degree?

SOME kind of personal, none tradebale carbon allowance would separate planet saving from dictatorship.

Although birth rates are declining,so are death rates so population growth expected for around 100years

The problem is number of people multiplied by carbon footprint per person. In the west we have low numbers of people and high footprint per person.

cushioncovers · 21/05/2019 06:59

Lady I thought the earths population was set to grow and been 9 billion by 2050?

MephistophelesApprentice · 21/05/2019 07:18

It's a truth noone wants to confront - bringing about the radical, unified alterations required to actually impact climate change would require a savage, crushing authoritarianism that can barely be envisaged. Because we live in democracies this will never happen until it's far too late to be meaningful.

WeirdAndPissedOff · 21/05/2019 07:27

Consumerism, laziness and greed are some of the biggest causes, IMO.
Population is a huge issue, but some countries have a large population with a relatively low combined carbon footprint.

We've gotten used to an unsustainable lifestyle where we can have what we want at the click if a button, throw away things rather than repair them, "upgrade" items when a better one is available, eat as much of whatever we want just because we fancy it, jump in a car for convenience etc. There's a cost for all of those things in terms of sustainability, environment, and also the treatment of others who work for pence a day while struggling to make ends meet, so we can have the luxuries we've grown accustomed to.

But we're not only conditioned into that behaviour, but pushed into it as companies chase ever bigger profits. Items are made cheaply so that they're more difficult to repair, or not worth repairing, electrical items and white goods no longer have half the lifespan they used to, and technology has inbuilt obsolescence so that your perfectly functional 4/5 year old phone/laptop gradually gets slower and less useable with each update, until you're pushed into a replacement. And everything is focused on making us buy things. We're seduced and bombarded constantly, or simply told we're disgusting or dysfunctional if we don't buy a range of items. And individuals could overhaul their lifestyles (and of course, every little helps) but it's industries who have by far the biggest changes to make.

Not to mention too many people are struggling to simply making ends meet, to make other causes a priority.

MIdgebabe · 21/05/2019 07:45

TO change industry requires a change from the current neoliberal model of society ,and it will require government to steer the changes becuase a company that today decides to go it alone and make large scale changes will lose profit and shareholders and go out of business pretty quickly unfortunatly . YES Some smaller companies may manage but the bulk of industry?

BogstandardBelle · 21/05/2019 07:48

midge carbon trading will fall at the hurdle (in the west) of needing people to actively choose to implement it - by voting for a political party that promises to make it happen. People will not vote for this if they are made aware of the radically restrictive impacts on their lifestyles that will result if it’s to be set at a truly sustainable level.

midge agreed. As long as we get to choose, we aren’t going to make the hard choices. This is one way of having them made for us.
.

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EnterFunnyNameHere · 21/05/2019 07:53

I think ladyvimes is slightly off... I believe birth rate is dropping (at least in some places), but that just means population growth is slowing slightly, not that the population isn't still growing.

For all the reasons given by pp a social credit system would never work, but it would be nice if there was something whereby you built up credit for environmental or societal good deeds in many respects, or maybe it just feels fairer that those who try to look out for the world should get some credit Smile

Mrsjayy · 21/05/2019 08:00

In practise it is a horrific idea give us a few generations of forced families we will be choosing the best babies disgardi g surplus and what about countries /cultures where babies are seen as a blessing etc etc do we just tell the west to stop breeding or ...

Kiwiinkits · 21/05/2019 08:15

We can innovate our way out of the problems caused by climate change. We can solve anything.

The system that is going to work the best is the system which incentivises radical innovations and inventions, and better ways of collaborating. Top-down authoritarianism is not that system. Global, free-trade capitalism (provided there are national social safety nets like universal basic income, heavily-subsidised healthcare and education and sensible restrictions on immigration) is the closest we can get to the ideal.

Hithere12 · 21/05/2019 08:22

That’s a bit like saying North Korea’s wholesale torture and murder of its own citizens in prison camps is doing wonders for the world population by helping to keep the numbers down

Yes!!! It’s extremely abusive. Paul Joseph Watson did a great video on it. I don’t normally like his stuff but l it looks terrifying.

Also OP do you own a car? Use electricity? Leave the country EVER? Are a vegan with no kids? I’m so over these holier than thou people who’s only “sacrifice” they make is to recycle (which barely makes a difference - not compared to having kids and eating meat anyway).

Yes things need to change but at least target the businesses first instead of advocating for abusive China policies. What next? Shall we have sweat shops to help the economy?

geekone · 21/05/2019 08:29

Have a listen to The BBC4 podcast “More or Less: the truth behind the statistics” they did a podcast on 6th May called “Avengers - should we reverse the snap” about how Thanos might have done a good thing. It’s fascinating and worth a listen.

DuesToTheDirt · 21/05/2019 08:33

@MephistophelesApprentice sadly you're exactly right.

Fiveredbricks · 21/05/2019 08:34

Err no @Outoutout that is not the solution at all. Try doing some research.

Economic housing, electricity generation, manufacturing and processing all need to be implemented.

Petrol needs to be banned. Beef and lamb farming needs to be banned on a mass scale.

Consuming needs to be reduced. Not people. Not yet anyway.

DuesToTheDirt · 21/05/2019 08:35

@kiwiinkits you cannot be serious.

Patroclus · 21/05/2019 08:35

Paul Joseph Watson hasnt done a great video on anything. Dont be ridiculous.

MsTSwift · 21/05/2019 08:38

I find it so depressing when people lash out like Hithere. So unless you live off grid in a hut in the woods and have no kids or car you are in no position to speak and should just la la ignore this massive problem? If the majority made some adjustments (limit family size air travel and meat consumption) that would make a massive difference

sar302 · 21/05/2019 08:39

The show Black Mirror did an episode that reflected this idea, but with social media mixed in. You should watch it. It's really fucking creepy when you see what could happen!

PettyContractor · 21/05/2019 08:42

Commenting on

I thought the earths population was set to grow and been 9 billion by 2050?

and

I believe birth rate is dropping (at least in some places), but that just means population growth is slowing slightly, not that the population isn't still growing.

The birth rate is no longer an issue, it has already fallen to a level that will ensure population stops increasing. The reason that won't happen until later in the century is that the death rate is falling. People in poorer countries are living longer.

(Source: some very interesting BBC documentaries on the subject I watched some time in the past few years. I think current world population was given as 7 billion, the peak in roughly 2050 was give 11 billion. Population is be low replacement rate in rich countries and in poor parts of the world, India and Africa, it will fall to the same rate as they get wealthier. )

Siameasy · 21/05/2019 08:45

WeirdandPissedOff good post. I think the same. Why should we expect people to change their attitudes when culturally the attitude is pile em high sell em cheap...greed gluttony selfishness laziness excess are all celebrated by society. Resilience, sacrifice, abstinence not so much.
The shops are full of plastic shite mainly from China of course people are going to buy it. Stop importing it.

Backwoodsgirl · 21/05/2019 08:50

In all reality we need a new plague.