To think that a Chinese “social credit” system might’ve the answer to saving the planet?

[BogstandardBelle]

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/01/china-bans-23m-discredited-citizens-from-buying-travel-tickets-social-credit-system?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

AIBU to think that this kind of system is going to be needed to change behaviour to the extent required to meet the challenge posed by climate change?

Definitely playing devils advocate: I’ve no desire to see this level of social control imposed here. But the Chinese Communist Party doesn’t need to win any popularity contests, and with a system like this in place, they could easily achieve net zero emissions (from individuals at least) if they wanted to.

I’m a bit confused by the Chinese idea and unless I’m really missing something, I suggest it’s just a shit one. What’s the point in limiting commercial travel when you consider the industrial pollution and environmental damage they are producing?

Hithere I don’t do any of those things, other than some half hearted recycling. That’s kind of my point: I, and millions like me, are not going to choose to do most of these things voluntarily, and I’m not likely to vote for any political party that will force me to. These choices need to be taken away. I don’t have a particularly high consumption lifestyle - two kids, drive a car occasionally, use public transport mostly, fly maybe every couple of years, not a big shopper, eat meat / fish / chicken most days, live in an apartment.

If by some bizarre circumstance Greenpeace or FoE were put in charge of the world and given the means to impose and enforce their policies, do you think they’d put their aims to a democratic vote and rely on people doing the right thing? Au contraire, i think we’d see a Green Dictatorship pretty quickly.

Yes things need to change but at least target the businesses first instead of advocating for abusive China policies. What next? Shall we have sweat shops to help the economy?

Those businesses are there because they cater for a demand, and it's us who provide the demand.

So only targeting them won't help. you need a complex approach.

But people like you who attack everybody who wants to try and make a change are not helping.

We have been fooled into believing individuals hold the answers for slowing climate change when it’s simply not true. I wish people would stop parroting that rhetoric and start getting angry at international governments and organisations who are responsible for this.

Birth rates across the world are actually decreasing so it’s not a population issue!!

You're obviously not on our plant then!!

Projections of population growth established in 2017 predict that the human population is likely to keep growing until 2100, reaching an estimated 8.6 billion in 2030, 9.8 billion in 2050 and 11.2 billion by 2100, while the 7 billion milestone was reached in 2011

The problem is longevity and that's an issue no one will touch

I’m sure China would touch it unicorn, they have no problem killing off people not wanted by the state. They’re probably already at it

@MephistophelesApprentice 100% right.

I’ll continue to do my middle class ‘drop in the ocean’ activism and all I can at the household and community level. But almost any/every political system other than ours would succeed in record time.

Individual’s rights are exactly the opposite of what our planet needs to survive. It’s the most crucial and irreversible dichotomy of our generation.

passthecherrycoke. The current Chinese one doesn’t aim to control environmental behaviour but social behaviour. If such a system was created, the gaining or losing of credits would be linked to environmental actions. So say you take Xkg to your local recycling centre (all weighed and credited to your account), you gain some credit. You drive to work (facial / licence plate recognition), you lose some credits. And if your credit score drops too low due to undesirable environmental behaviour - your kids don’t get into the school or uni of their choice... you are unable to apply for a credit card or loan... your internet connection runs slow...

It's an issue of sustainability, when people say population that's what they mean. Birth rates are not decreasing everywhere - Africa population is set to double be end of century...at least! With this country and every country, there is a huge issue with the level of population that we can sustain being exceeded and continuing to increase. Nothing will change until this is addressed.

I would endorse the slow Internet plan.
It doesn't really harm anyone but it's infuriating.
I don't think children's education should be affected though.

This is godawful. This is exactly what I've been fearing for years - that the total lack of responsibility and self-restraint that our culture has been encouraging for decades, in order to promote "the economy", will result in this kind of totalitarian backlash.

Do I want to see it here? No. No, not under any circumstances.

Do we have a choice?

Prefer Thanos's idea tbh

That’s basically slavery. My parents lived in the USSR where they had to bribe/sleep with someone to be permitted to buy a plane ticket. Do you really want to live in a world wherepeople don’t have the freedom to go where they want when they want?

It's more than slavery. It requires and uses tracking of unprecedented levels. It means that officially a white lie you said to your teacher 40 years ago could be used against you at any point. Who could guard this system?

People like me, and you, singularly will not have a massive change on the environment.
Its massive companies who have to change their practices, they will make the sort of change that will make a difference.
A couple of years ago, I was shocked to see that drinks were still available in polystyrene in some places. I'm shocked when I get online orders, just how much additional cardboard and plastic is used in the packaging that doesn't need to be there.

McDonalds and Disney use paper straws now, but still serve drinks with plastic lids.

If we had an environmental credits system you just know the rich will have a way around it. Such as 'donating' X amount to offset their impact, while the poorest in society become increasingly restricted and controlled.

I'm not saying I dont do my part. I've stopped using bottled water, I use a reusable bottle, I have recently stopped buying bottles of shampoo etc, I go and buy the bars from lush. I am being more conscious of my footprint and walking instead of using the car, cut down on meat, and I am trying wherever possible to avoid buying plastic. I go on a plane journey once a year, I have solar panels on my house, but I honestly dont feel like massive change will come about until massive corporations really make it their business.

utter nonsense.
Unless you are willing to impose massive restrictions on TRADE, stopping random individuals from having an annual holiday abroad will change nothing

Its massive companies who have to change their practices, they will make the sort of change that will make a difference.

This sort of thing really winds me up. Companies aren't faceless 'others' outside our control. They are created by people, run by people and kept in business by people. If you work for or shop at McDonald's why not suggest replacing the plastic lids with something else. Consumer demand is powerful. If everyone abdicates responsibility for this issue to someone else we won't fix anything.

Problem is our whole society based on capitalism so growth production consumption etc which if the planet can’t sustain won’t work as a model any more. That’s why it’s so hard. Fly less ration flying decimate that industry and all who work in it.

Definitely playing devils advocate: I’ve no desire to see this level of social control imposed here. But the Chinese Communist Party doesn’t need to win any popularity contests, and with a system like this in place, they could easily achieve net zero emissions (from individuals at least) if they wanted to.

The point is control of behaviour. I live in China and as the middle class grows here and people travel more and more, I see very little concern for the environment.

re. flying. A friend just posted that he's on a 175-seater plane. Only 16 people on board...

m.youtube.com/watch?v=y5-0llHaZDs

This is a really good video on the China points system. Before I watched it I didn’t see it as that bad.

Also to be clear I’m not a fan of PJW but it’s a very informative vid

We will see our "freedoms" limited even more once China gains more power. This recent Huawei/Google thing is just the tip of the iceberg.