To think Elizabeth Bennett is shallow?

[WobblyArse]

Pride and Prejudice in reality:

He is a massive twat.

She changes her mind about him only when she sees his massive house.

The end.

Elizabeth changed her mind after learning what he did for Lydia, surely?

She's a pragmatist! If she was that shallow, she would have accepted his initial proposal. She already that knew he was rich. It was the letter he sent her that began to change her mind. Of course, seeing Pemberley didn't put her off...

And after hearing what those who know him best think of him.

Reread the book I think you are missing the context.

And the housekeeper at the massive house spoke so fondly of him...

Not shallow, pragmatic.
Relationships based solely on love or infatuation are not happy (Lydia and Wickham)
Relationships based solely on commodity or money are not happy (Charlotte and Mr Collins)
There has to be a balance of the two (at least in Austin’s day).
.......bet you can’t guess what I’ve been doing with DD1 this GCSE week.....

I agree to a point. Elizabeth's a complex character: in her own eyes she knows her own mind but in reality she's prejudiced and easily-led; hence how easily she was taken in by Wickham. It's only after she reads Darcy's letter and realizing how much credence she's attached to Wickham's winsome ways that's she's pulled up short by reasoning who the hell imparts confidences like that and tales of woe to a complete stranger. Only then is she properly ashamed of herself and 'deserving' of the rich but flawed hero.

It's clearly Lydia and Mrs Bennet we are meant to dislike, but I find Lizzy and Mr Bennet particularly unappealing characters. Bennet treats his wife and at least three of his daughters disgracefully.

The real tragedies of the piece belong to Lydia - who ends up married to the POS who grooms and seduces her and then lives a miserable life while he lives it up in Bath - and Charlotte Lucas, who has no choice but to marry a man she doesn't love or become destitute. There were no options, or places to go, for the many, many women in this position at that time. What bloody awful lives they must have had.

Unlike many readers I don't find P&P lighthearted escapism at all. For me it's very sobering, sad read.

Definitely pragmatic rather than shallow. It's satire anyway.

I think you should read it again.

I think that’s too simplistic a view. I believe that she learns enough about his character to change her view of him (she realises that he is generous, loyal and kind to those he loves and that he always strives to do the right thing). Her love for him is rooted in that realisation. But Jane Austen was an incredibly shrewd social commentator, and she doesn’t shy away from the fact that in a world where women had so little agency and virtually no opportunities to make a living for themselves, marrying well was incredibly important. Elizabeth Bennett loves Darcy, but she is honest enough with herself and others to recognise that his being so wealthy and prestigious is a huge perk which she would be disingenuous to pretend meant nothing.

I think the point being made is that Elizabeth and Jane were lucky to marry for love, because that option wouldn’t have been available to them if the men they loved had been penniless or working class. It’s not like they married for love and the wealth was a perk. They married men who were suitably wealthy and respectable, and the fact that they loved them was a perk.

I found her far from shallow, especially for the time it's set in. women where depend on the men around them unless the where very lucky to inherit a lot of land and money with no strings attached.

the Bennett's where in a precarious position as there were no male airs, and with the death of Mr Bennett they could all be homeless, the mother was obsessed with getting them marrying and marrying well, because it would secure her own future as well as giving opportunities to the other sisters of moving in wider circles or unmarried sister to be taken in to their house.

Elizabeth started to change her mind after the letter and more as Darcy showed his better side regards her sister and how he treated her aunt and uncle who lived on 'cheap side' and worked for a living.

Elizabeth Bennet’s motivations were deliberately left open ended. She and Jane Bennet are either very different to her parents, or they are very similar (ie Jane is a hysterical drama queen like her mum; Elizabeth is a cutting sarcastic twat like her dad). It’s up to us as the reader to decide.

As for D’arcy — he’s also open ended. He’s very either different or the same as his aunt. When you consider that the way he treats Georgiana after the scandal is similar to the way his aunt treats her daughter (and their notions of pride are fairly similar) how long would it take for him to lose respect for Elizabeth after the wedding?

Yeah ok some fair points here 😆

She generally pretty blind to her father's faults, nobody else's though. The more you read this book the more it speaks to you about the complexity of relationships.

I don’t think we’re meant to find Mrs Bennett particularly unlikeable. We’re seeing her through Elizabeth’s eyes, and she doesn’t see her father’s flaws until much later in the book. It’s Mr Bennett who is truly at fault, having failed to secure the family finances, trusting that he would have a son. Mrs Bennett may come across as daft at first (and she’s massively flawed of course) but it’s her husband burying his head in the sand that forces her to be obsessed with marrying her girls off.

Jane Austen pretty much invented the flawed narrator. On the first reading of the book we can take Elizabeth’s understanding at face value, and the story completely works on this level, but the more you read it, the more you see of her misreading of situations. Emma is also especially good at this.

Lizzie’s smart. Knows what side her breads buttered.

Mr Bennett’s a twat though. He does nothing to secure his daughter’s futures and makes open fun of his wife for her obsession with marrying them off.

Also, Darcy improves, not just as one gets to know him, but actively tries to make himself more acceptable after Elizabeth's "notes" on his first proposal. A man who goes from barely speaking at the first ball to the easy conversation with Mr and Mrs Gardiner is a man who is not just resting on his big pile of worth.

I believe Jane Austen intended Elizabeth and Darcy to complement and improve each other.

I dislike her... always found her self-satisfied and not nearly as witty as Austen intended her to be. She was a bit of a cunt to Charlotte, I thought, too. A snob to Lydia. Unfilial to her mother. Etc

Emma, Persuasion- much better books IMO.

She changed her mind when she saw him in his wet shirt surely?

I think Darcy is flawed - but unlike Mr Collins who is a sort of automation - Darcy has the ability to reflect on his own behaviour.

He manages his estate well and is an affectionate brother to Georgiana.

Elizabeth is an affectionate friend to Charlotte and goes on a long visit to see her despite the fact that she finds her ex-suitor Mr Collins especially trying. She's a good sister to Jane, and like many Mumsnetters, has a difficult relationship with her mother - partly because her mother simply wants to marry her off to any bidder who'll take her off her parents hands. Elizabeth's father wants her to marry someone she loves and respects, with whom she will be happy.

professor

Elizabeth's father wants her to marry someone she loves and respects, with whom she will be happy.

No guarantees whatsoever this person materialises. And if he doesn’t, Lizzie is totally screwed thanks to her fathers own ineptitude.

Darcy saves Mr Bennett’s ass as much as anyone else’s.

That would be fair enough professor. Not shallow at all.

She doesn’t agree to marry him until she’s realised that he’s an extremely caring brother, a kind and generous employer to his staff, a loyal friend (if a bit misguided at times) and a very benevolent man. He paid off someone he absolutely hated to save the humiliation of the woman he loved and her family after she’d already rejected him. What’s not to like?

From Chapter 57

' “Lizzy,” said her father, “I have given him my consent. He is the kind of man, indeed, to whom I should never dare refuse anything, which he condescended to ask. I now give it to you, if you are resolved on having him. But let me advise you to think better of it. I know your disposition, Lizzy. I know that you could be neither happy nor respectable, unless you truly esteemed your husband; unless you looked up to him as a superior. Your lively talents would place you in the greatest danger in an unequal marriage. You could scarcely escape discredit and misery. My child, let me not have the grief of seeing you unable to respect your partner in life. You know not what you are about.”

Elizabeth, still more affected, was earnest and solemn in her reply; and at length, by repeated assurances that Mr. Darcy was really the object of her choice, by explaining the gradual change which her estimation of him had undergone, relating her absolute certainty that his affection was not the work of a day, but had stood the test of many months' suspense, and enumerating with energy all his good qualities, she did conquer her father's incredulity, and reconcile him to the match.'

It's a romantic novel and we don't follow them into married life. But I think we are meant to understand that Elizabeth has had a chance to think again about Darcy after her first refusal of him - and has a better estimation of his true character.