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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be disappointed in hearing that many UK woman drink during pregnancy [shock]

1003 replies

Leati · 18/07/2007 08:16

Yesterday, I was on a thread when some of the women started questioning about US policy on drinking alcohol during pregnancies. One of the women had heard that if you have a glass of wine, you could be arrested. I assured her that wasn't true but there was chance that if you were visibly pregnant that the restaurant or bar might exercise their right to refuse service. And if a pediatrician became suspicious of drug or alcohol abuse, they could have the baby?s blood tested at birth. If the baby is found to have these in their blood, the child will be taken away. Another woman pitched that she found it disturbing that restaurants had signs warning pregnant women.

I couldn't believe what I was hearing. These women seemed to believe it was actually okay to drink during their pregnancies. Hadn't they heard of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. So today, I did a little research and was shocked to learn that it is a big problem in the UK and that there is little education about it there.

Women who are angry over mothers choosing the bottle over nursing are damaging their children by drinking alcohol. This is not minor damage, in some case it is equivalent to severe mental retardation and in others it less obvious cognitive problems. Overall nearly 10% of babies born in the UK are suffering from some sort of cognitive problems directly related to alcohol exposure in the womb.

What broke my heart the most is that I have been on this site and I know that the mothers on this site care so much for their children. That while I may not always agree with everything said and our perspectives are not always the same, that we share a common love for our children. So I felt compelled to start this thread and share the information. I hope that you will share it, with your loved ones and it may spread.

I have attached some sites so you can research this yourself. These sites are both from the UK and the US.

www.fasaware.co.uk/

www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/west/series2/fetal_alcohol_syndro mfaspregnancydrinkinglearning_difficulties.shtml

www.healthychildrenproject.org/glossa ry/

OP posts:
islandofsodor · 19/07/2007 00:50

Yeah, whatever.

You have still not responded to why you took the risk of harming your baby by feeding them solids and gluten at that before 6 months when all the research states that this could cause untold problems.

weasleymum · 19/07/2007 01:20

"One of the mumsnetters valiantly declared that...she is a human being with many faucets to her"

I personally wouldn't pay any attention to the opinions of someone who is part human, part bathroom fixture.

... Seriously, Leati:

No-one doubts the damage potential of heavy drinking in pregnancy. But the effect of small quantities of alcohol on the fetus is very poorly understood and it is disingenous to suggest otherwise.

There almost certainly is a safe level of alcohol in pregnancy. If one sip of alcohol in 9 months was unsafe, then the physiology books would have to be rewritten.

So somewhere between that 1 sip and binge drinking, there's a threshold, and it's likely to be different for different women. Where is the average location of the limit? What are the upper and lower levels of the limit? No-one knows.

So, clearly, avoiding alcohol is the only way to be 100% sure of being below the limit. But given what we know about physiology and teratology, it's overwhelmingly likely that women drinking occasional small amounts are perfectly safe.

They may be wrong - only time will tell - but they are actually more in line with current knowlege than you are, and striving to demonise them is a colossal waste of time and electrons.

CristinaTheAstonishing · 19/07/2007 01:36

I went to Ft Lauderdale, Florida in May this year. I was pregnant. Visibly so. I asked the bartenders for the alcoholic content of beer because I wanted to drink the lowest possible. They looked at me as if I was an alien and said "they are all the same". So I asked to see the bottles. There was no information at all on the varieties of Budweiser and some Mexican ones they had on sale. This was in a couple of bars in the Hilton hotel. No info at all and no ban on selling me the beer either.

LOL at "thread of all threads", don't let it go to your head!

bellabelly · 19/07/2007 01:49

Ooh, well put Weasleymum.

Leati - not sure why you're showing us the first draft - do you want feedback? If so, as well as the faucet / facet clanger, you've also mis-spelt effect (you've written "affect" which is only ever used as a verb). Hope this helps!

MhamaiJane · 19/07/2007 05:37

Jesus wept! Oh and re the faucet reference, can't help thinking the powerpoint/socket posts in bathrooms distracted the op.
Seriously though, if you want to link to what my views are on this "thread of threads"

www.getoveryourselfyounuttabutthanksforthelarfs.com

Leati · 19/07/2007 06:15

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6687761.stm]

OP posts:
MhamaiJane · 19/07/2007 06:20

[http:/Idon'tgiveaflyingfu*%mainlydowntoyourpatronisingsanctimoniusdrivel.co.uk]

TheBlonde · 19/07/2007 06:20

Leati - have you ever been to the UK?
Bottle feeding is socially acceptable here you know

ninedragons · 19/07/2007 07:02

Well, I've read the whole thread, and I must say I am in need of a bong.

Any other pregnant Brits want to join me?

Katy44 · 19/07/2007 07:31

who talked about not being a walking fetus? Surely the term will have been walking womb.
Apart from the grammatical errors that's a wonderful piece of hyped up factless journalism at its best.
And ..........LISTEN ........
your children were NOT attacked people simply want to know why you choose to follow some GUIDANCE and not others.
The WHO is a worldwide authority on health matters. Marching Dime - I'd never heard of until yesterday, I don't think they compare.

If you want people to take you seriously then respond to some of their queries (and sort out your spelling and grammar). If you want to wind people up, carry on as you are. This debate could have been very different - a valid argument - if you had approached it differently.
Why am I even typing, you refuse to read any posts you just cut n paste n run.

Katy44 · 19/07/2007 07:33

yes, the term used was walking womb
still, i'm sure you know best

BandofMuggles · 19/07/2007 07:39

As it is so long I have not read all of this, maybe 20 - 30 posts.

As soon as I opened it I knew it would be Leati.

You seem determined to show all us women in the UK how awful we are, but (since I haven't read the whole thread) did the statistics for the US come up at all. Perhaps our numbers are higher but I'm sure their are plenty of US women who drink during their pg's too.

I enjoyed the odd gl;ass of alcohol when pg and my girls are fine. Mind you more than half a lager/shandy with DD1 and I felt so ill it wasn't worth it.

I read something somewhere in early pg with DD1 that really made me aware of how much I consumed, and that was

"When the mother is feeling tipsy, the baby is close to passing out."

Every time a glass touched my lips this sentence sprang to mind and made it very easy not to drink much.

All that said it is a good idea to raise awareness among women who drink to excess, but this thread title is still annoying to me.

dal21 · 19/07/2007 07:53

Oh Leati - you are dull dull dull. Think my brain is in danger of collapsing and dribbling out through my nose in sheer and utter boredom.
Am not disputing your viewpoint but as an adult surely you should realise that respect of other peoples opinions and views is paramount. Practising this when you have children is even more important so that they grow up to become independant minded and intelligent individuals - who have the ability to consider other peoples viewpoints. You are entitled to your opinion. But coming on here and throwing your weight around - I mean, seriously. Who on earth do you actually think you are? You have seriously annoyed me and that doesnt happen much.

nappyaddict · 19/07/2007 08:02

my midwife seemed to think having up to 4 units a week was absolutely fine. i didn't drink this every week but i would have a couple now and then if i was out with friends.

Lauriefairycake · 19/07/2007 08:02

Your writing is appalling. Grammar, spelling and punctuation all missing. You are unable to string a coherent sentence together. You are unable to construct an argument.

No magazine/newspaper will be interested in your poor journalism.

Your article is FULL of inaccuracies - there was no 'frenzied attack'. That is just sensationalist claptrap.

As a person you appear unable to hear other points of view and be able to discuss them rationally.

I will be avoiding threads with you on it in future as you appear to be a moron. (Americans use idiot,imbecile, and moron to describe IQ related to age - you only have to be an imbecile to join the US army and indeed it is preferred - not joking unfortunately).

I've used moron in reference to you because I'm guessing from the way you write that your IQ indicates you are roughly aged 9 - 11.

Have a great day.

bobsmum · 19/07/2007 08:04

But today's newspapers are already out - maybe you'll get into the second editition?

Presumably you wanted us to proof read your appalling grammar and spelling? Use some paragraphs too.

Leati · 19/07/2007 08:06

Running head: THE UNITED KINGDOM AND DRINKING DURING PREGNANCIES

The United Kingdom and Drinking during Pregnancies
Leatriana Pope
Jul 18, 2007
The United Kingdom and Drinking during Pregnancies

Mumsnet is a web page that gives mothers a forum to discuss life, children, and family. The women there often offer a fresh perspective to life and are blunt about their opinions on various issues. Social politeness that prevents American women from expressing themselves is forgone on this site. It was here that I first started to understand that there were vast differences in lifestyles between the United Kingdom (UK) and the United States (US).
I began to pick up on the fact that many of the women on the site used alcohol during their pregnancies and believed that it was healthy in moderation. I started the thread of all threads in hopes of discovering more. I will admit, I was hoping to spread the concept that alcohol during pregnancies was not acceptable. Never, have I seen such a frenzied attack on a person in my life. My character, my intelligence, my country, my children, and so much more was dissected, insulted, and considered not up to par. The women did not want to hear that drinking alcohol during pregnancies was unhealthy. The only information they were interested in was information that told them it was ?safe? to drink.
The ladies were referred to several web-sites that indicated that some early research indicates that alcohol even in small amounts could cause developmental and cognitive problems. Then the integrity of those web-sites was attacked. The March of Dimes was called ?a right wing anti-abortionists? group. A article in medical news today, was suspect because the doctor worked for an awareness group, ?Dr Raja Mukherjee spoke at the Foetal Alcohol Syndrome Aware UK Syndrome Conference, London, UK? and the about.com article was ?irresponsible? because they recommend pregnant women who are drinking to stop immediately. However, the women had a very reliable source they could depend on in Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist (RCOG). ?There is an increasing body of evidence suggesting harm to the fetus from alcohol consumption during pregnancy. While the safest approach may be to avoid any alcohol intake during pregnancy, it remains the case that there is no evidence of harm from low levels of alcohol consumption, defined as no more than one or two units of alcohol once or twice a week (Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist [RCOG], 2006).? However, it appears that RCOG stands alone in their approach that the consumption of mild alcohol consumption is acceptable during pregnancy.
The Center for Disease control and prevention recommends that women abstain from drinking alcohol during pregnancy. They state there is no safe amount or time to consumer alcohol during pregnancies(Center for Disease Control [CDC], May ). The United States Surgeon General advises women who are pregnant or plan to become pregnant to abstain for drinking alcohol, ?It is now clear that no amount of alcohol can be considered safe.(United States Surgeon General [USSG], 2005)? MayoClinic advises, ?Stop drinking alcohol altogether if you're planning to become pregnant, as soon as you know you're pregnant or if you even think you might be pregnant. Your baby's brain, heart and blood vessels begin to develop in the early weeks of pregnancy.(Mayo Clinic [MC], May )? The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist recommend that women do not drink, advising women that doctors do not know how much alcohol it takes to harm a fetus(American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist [ACOG], ).
There are clear differences between the UK and US policy on drinking during pregnancy. The more research done, the more indications there are that many affects of alcohol are not as visible. Children who struggle in school, or have learning disabilities can be the result of a drinking parent. How can we differentiate between nature and nurture? Ideally women would abstain from alcohol during pregnancy but that is just not realistic. In United Kingdom it appears to be socially acceptable to drink during pregnancy, despite the known risk and the fact that there is no medical benefit to drinking alcohol during pregnancy. Many women indicated midwives even advised them to have a unit of wine a few nights a week to help them relax. Most women on the mumsnet web-site stated that they drank very mildly to moderately, however, a few proudly declared they drank every night. While any suggestion that drinking mildly to moderately during pregnancy could be harmful to a fetus and that women should abstain during pregnancy was viciously attacked. No one appeared upset when mothers proudly announced that they drank more than the recommended amount by the ROCG.
I am left to ponder is this just another difference between the two countries or is it a serious problem. Are tens of thousand of doctors and organizations, unnecessarily, denying women the joy of a relaxing glass of wine? Or is ROCG lulling women into a false sense of security? There are a lot of unknowns but a few things are known. Alcohol that a woman consumes during pregnancy passes from her blood into the blood of the unborn fetus, and the fetus is still developing its liver and so it does not have the same ability to get rid of the alcohol. Heavy consumption of alcohol can lead to a wide variety of health issues including fetal alcohol syndrome(FAS).
One of the mumsnetters valiantly declared that she was not a walking womb. She is a human being with many facets to her and the ability to make decisions about what is best for her and her unborn. I found this statement powerful but still I wondered, if the UK put the same efforts into educating, encouraging, and supporting women not to drink during pregnancy, as they do for breastfeeding after birth, would these women feel the same. It would appear to me that while drinking during pregnancy is socially acceptable in the UK, bottle feeding your baby is not.

References
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist (). Alcohol and Pregnancy. Retrieved July 18, 2007, from www.acog.org/publications/patient_education/bp132.cfm
Center for Disease Control (May , May 31, 2007). Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders. Retrieved July 18, 2007, from www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fas/default.htm
Mayo Clinic (May , May 23, 2007). Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Retrieved July 18, 2007, from www.mayoclinic.com/health/fetal-alcohol-syndrome/DS00184/DSECTION=8
Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologist (2006, March 2006). Alcohol Comsuption and the Outcomes of Pregnancy. Retrieved July 18, 2007, from www.rcog.org.uk/resources/public/pdf/alcohol_pregnancy_rcog_statement5a.pdf
United States Surgeon General (2005, February 21, 2005). U.S. Surgeon General Releases Advisory on Alcohol Use in Pregnancy. Retrieved July 18, 2007, from www.surgeongeneral.gov/pressreleases/sg02222005.html

OP posts:
Katy44 · 19/07/2007 08:07

Respond to our questions

meandmyflyingmachine · 19/07/2007 08:08

"There are clear differences between the UK and US policy on drinking during pregnancy."

Government policy in the UK is in fact to recommend no drinking alcohol in pregnancy.

elesbells · 19/07/2007 08:09

oooooh was this on sky news?????

Katy44 · 19/07/2007 08:09

affects / effects again
but thatnks for correcting the walking fetus and faucets

elesbells · 19/07/2007 08:11

the grammar is awful

eleusis · 19/07/2007 08:12

Can I suggest some editing?

Mumsnet is a web page that gives mothers a forum to discuss life, children, and family

would be more accurate as:

Mumsnet.com is a website which provides a forum for parents to discuss everything from childbirth to world hunger.

I mean if you are going to misrepresent the website in such a sladerous way, the least you can do is open it up with a proper plug.

By the way, if you really want to blaze ahead with pinning the US against the UK, please me sure to note my comments in the American camp. I am not British. I am American.

amidaiwish · 19/07/2007 08:14

one for the National Enquirer no doubt.

Katy44 · 19/07/2007 08:17

Please Leati join the debate instead of just posting great big chunks of text.
Please explain why some 'recommendations' need to be followed religiously, while some can be ignored or are more flexible.

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