I'm a bit shocked *trigger warning, rape*

[mbosnz]

My DD (15), had a class exploring issues regarding rape today. Mixed class. No warning about the subject, not to parents, not to kids.

She heard two boys state that it was the victims' fault in the scenarios they were shown. Usual reasons - drunk, how they were dressed. Seemed to be a heavy focus on the scenario of stranger rape, although they were given the statistic that 90% of rapes are committed by people the victim knows. Girls were giggling in agreement with the boys saying it was the victims' fault. Oh, and males can't be raped, don't you know? Because they're bigger and stronger.

She was beside herself with rage. She was trying to argue, rebut and negate, and just got male patronised until she was ready to either punch the person she was arguing with, or cry. I'm proud of her that she stood her ground (and didn't punch him or cry).

Apparently the teacher was fairly aghast (male teacher).

I'm fairly aghast. Statistically it's highly likely that someone in that class has been victimised sexually. They had to sit there through that. Hearing all that.

AIBU here? Being overly shocked and upset?

This is shocking but unsurprising. I would certainly want to speak to the school about this. Much more robust intervention needs to be done around rape culture. The police releasing cutesy little videos comparing consent to having a cup of tea is a waste of time. Rape Crisis released figures for 2017 - 18 showing 3,236 service users were aged 15 or under which was a 22% increase in the previous year. Utterly depressing.

To be fair, Is this not why they’re learning about it? It’s sadly fairly obvious there are people who think like this so educating young people out of that mindset is the start of change

Considering how few feminists there are amongst us and how uncritically most people swallow rape myths it's not surprising that there was only one girl in a whole class of schoolchildren willing to speak up.

I've sat in a similar class in uni with a group of future social workers where, depressingly, similar attitudes were expressed. I'm not surprised, sadly.

Oh 'eck! With future SOCIAL WORKERS lemmein? That really makes me despair.

This is a predictable response from teenagers who have no idea what rape is and is not. It was a perfect opportunity to challenge and discuss these ideas and why they are so wrong. A skilled teacher/facilitator should be ready for this and how to handle it. Any student who tries to challenge it should be supported. The boys are full of bravado and ignorance. They will continue these views unless they are taught otherwise

mbosnz. Children like your DD can be challenging to get to 15 🤣 but they’re also incredibly rewarding and amazing people as young adults/adults. The world is far better off for them

...but often the parents are a little more grey & a little more in need of 🍷🥃

What to do about it though, if she really doesn’t want you to raise it with the school...I’d talk to her again over the weekend when she’s had a chance to calm
down, reflect and see if anything is said tomorrow. Tell her you think the HD should know that the teacher needs some support delivering this topic and that many of her (male and female) peers hold these views and that they weren’t challenged by the teacher. That tell the HT doesn’t mean he’ll be in trouble, that he will get help to be able to deal with it better. Ask her if she doesn’t think that another child in her class might need to hear from the teacher that sexual assault and rape are NOT the victims fault EVER. Nothing needs to be said in the class about the previous lesson, but a much improved follow on lesson could be invaluable. Really talk to her, then go with what she wants you to do. She’s the one that has to deal with at school.

To be fair, Is this not why they’re learning about it? It’s sadly fairly obvious there are people who think like this so educating young people out of that mindset is the start of change

Where was the ‘learning’ and ‘educating’ here?

A teacher being ‘aghast’ and leaving a 15yo feeling like she’s a lone voice is NOT educating these kids!

Thanks IncrediblySadToo, that's very good advice. (I'm a bit disconcerted about how you discerned my increasing problem of too many grey hairs!)

This is a predictable response from teenagers who have no idea what rape is and is not. It was a perfect opportunity to challenge and discuss these ideas and why they are so wrong. A skilled teacher/facilitator should be ready for this and how to handle it. Any student who tries to challenge it should be supported. The boys are full of bravado and ignorance. They will continue these views unless they are taught otherwise

^^ this

I was raped, by a friend, aged 13. I wouldn't have withdrawn from this lesson as my parents didn't know and I wouldn't have wanted to rock the boat but hearing these views expressed and then not countered / discussed constructively would have very difficult, and wouldn't have helped me challenge my own view that I 'invited' it. In fact, when the issue came up in one of our PRSE lessons (mid 90s) I remember the male teacher handling it very well and in fact my friends at the time encouraged me to report my assault. I didn't, but it was good to know the option was there and to know I'd be taken seriously.

WHo is the woman who does Everyday Sexism - Laura Bates? She goes around having these discussions in school and the views you've outlined she says always come up. I think it was important that the discussion was held (not sure if should have been mixed or single sexed), but it sounds like the teachers wholly unequipped to deal with it. If schools are going to have these lessons teachers need excellent training to prepare them. These lessons may be a one off chance to address such attitudes and need to be handled well.

I think senior schools teach girls a lot about how to handle disgusting behaviour from boys but that in it's self is a sickening fact of life. It's 2019 and apparently we're back in 1954. Vile. Their parents have a lot to answer for and I can't imagine those lads have much respect for their own mothers.

Did anyone watch the recent programme (several weeks ago now) something like 'Is This Sexual Assault'?

They had a group of young men (I'd say 19-23) and they showed film (not real life, dramatised to a particular situation) of a where they showed a girl starting working at a bar and the boss was a bit slimy, getting a bit close over/behind her when she worked on the computer, getting her proper pissed at the bar they worked at, put his hand on her back (she moved away), suggested they share a taxi home then made a pass at her on the pavement.

To a man, every single one had a viewpoint which I'll distil as follows:
Because she didn't, on the first thing she didn't like, immediately turn round and deck the guy, there was a strong possibility she was actually interested. If she wasn't she'd have forcefully made that known. She 'brought it on herself'. The assumption was essentially that all women are interested and the guys simply would try and try until they got absolute crystal clear evidence that the girl wasn't interested - so quite the entire 180 degree opposite of how they should be approaching such matters.

Is it any wonder with those attitudes and the massive consumption of porn, how easy it is for a man (particularly, men do get raped of course) to end up raping a woman - it's just keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, oh you've just been raped.

Our girls (particularly) have a VERY difficult world to navigate through, I don't envy them one little bit. It's very very very dangerous out there.

I think if your DD doesn't want you to raise it, you possibly shouldn't. It could turn ugly for her. I think possible other options are 1. get her to write something out about why she thought it was so bad then, if she's incensed enough, she can be in control of re-raising the issue and holding the school to account for the appalling way they delivered and managed the session (though to be fair, the school shouldn't assume that all teachers are trained to teach this subject quite frankly - I could teach it, but some wouldn't manage it as it's very challenging 2. use it as an opportunity to talk to you rather fabulous DD about self-awareness of riskier situations, consent, etc etc.

When porn is presenting women being effectively raped for male titilation, is it any wonder?

Sounds like the topic was handled really badly. Would have been better to split into groups and have teachers of both sexes present.

@DointItForTheKids the 'keep trying till she says yes' narrative is so pernicious. Rooted in little Prince privilege - she'll change her mind because you're so gorgeous/hot/rich, just ask her again. URGH I hate it! But it's everywhere. I'm not suggesting for a moment men and boys should get a free pass on that kind of behaviour, but 'winning her over' is very much part of popular culture.

I agree Lonny.

It pervades of course into the older man just as much (often white men with a big belly) who think every woman fancies them. Or men in their 30s who you think are a work colleague that you really get on with and the next minute he's sending you a message asking you out and when you tell him er mate I'm not interested, he says 'yes I want to take it slow too' ? Or the men who wolf whistle/call out or say 'smile love'.

I think one of the best things we can do is to educate our young 'uns that this is how it is and let them look after themselves from that (skewed, fucked up) perspective rather than the one where we (should be able to but can't) assume respect.

On another recent programme which looked at rape (male and female, I'll deal with the female) the indicators/situations that increased risk were (and I'm NOT saying any of these were the victim's fault, far from it):

• drinking with colleagues (where a male colleague clearly thought that the victim concerned must fancy him), they go back to the company booked hotel, he rapes her
• girl goes out with her female friend and that female friend's boyfriend. These two have a row and the female friend goes off on her own. Victim to be goes back to her female friend's flat where she was always planning to stay that night, along with the boyfriend, she goes to sleep, wakes up to find him raping her

The saddest thing was the number of these cases that didn't get to court and the ones that did which didn't result in a conviction.

FWIW I got quite pissed one night whilst a male friend was visiting me once (we're both in our 40s) and we had sex. Despite our pissed state, he asked me if it was ok to go ahead and put penis in vag, so it is bloody possible to be pissed, spontaneous - and still find out about consent.

The example Id use would be, what if a woman has a severe psychotic break, strips off in her house and comes out onto the street, incoherent and walking up to everyone - would she deserve to be raped? How is that different to someone pissed out their mind?

I cannot conceive of their own over-inflated self obsessed over-bloated opinions of themselves! I think it's all part of the fragile male ego/machismo bollocks that they simply can't cope unless they go round in life thinking EVERY woman they meet, fancies them.

@DointItForTheKids I think they know that every woman they meet doesn't fancy them, it's actually entitlement. They are men, they are entitled to sex, they perhaps tell themselves that the women involved 'fancy' them, but that's just because they're in denial about what's really going on.

Yes, delusion is their friend that's for sure. I think this is what makes them so dangerous.