Gavin Williamson “swearing on his DCs’ life”

[Loopytiles]

Sacked defence secretary says he didn’t leak from the National Security council, and reportedly “swore on his DCs’ life”.

I’m generally cynical and am no fan of Mr Williamson, but if he said this tend to believe him. It’s a rarely used phrase and not one I imagine parents would use if lying.

Am I being naive? Suppose that unless you’re superstitious, nothing bad will happen to your DC if you say it about a lie.

I think there should be a criminal investigation.

Logically you'd think that if the PM has sacked a minister for a breach of security then there must be proof and certainty.
However given the unprecedented incompetence this government has shown it's anyone's guess what's going on. I could easily believe GW leaked the info out of ambition. I could believe TM has jumped the gun and not actually seen proof. I could believe the sky was pink if Chris Grayling told me it wasn't.

I also assume that people who swear "on their kids lives" are lying.

Mostly it's used because the person doing the swearing has no personal integrity to guarantee their word, so they reach out to anything that might give them a shred of credibility. It is effective because people who DO have personal integrity think "Well, I wouldn't swear on my kids lives unless I was telling the truth". But it's meaningless.

I swear on my kids lives that I am Galactica, queen of Mars, and also that I have never eaten leftover Mcdonalds for breakfast. See? It's easy.

I think it's ridiculous to "swear on my child's life"

It's the equivalent of "200%"

Meaningless phrase, makes no sense

It's a totally superstitious saying and means nothing... just because he swears on his children's life does not mean he didn't do it as he is an intelligent man who presumably realises that nothing bad will actually happen to his children just because he made that statement.

According to the PM's letter he was the only person who did not co-operate fully with the enquiry.

We now know that his phone records showed that he talked to the journalist in question.

He was one of the PM's allies - one of the few ministers she could rely on. He brokered the deal with the DUP that kept Theresa May in power after the 2017 election. And his promotion to Defence Secretary was widely seen as the PM positioning him as her chosen successor.

I don't know whether or not he leaked. But, on the information available, I am convinced that the PM believes that he leaked and, on the evidence, it seems likely that he did. That isn't the same as saying that he did beyond reasonable doubt (the standard required for a criminal prosecution). So he may be telling the truth. But he definitely appears to be the leaker on the balance of probabilities (which is the standard used in an employment situation).

I find that people who swear on DC/their own lives tend to be liars.

^this

Also along the same lines:
"I've got kids, I wouldn't do that to them" then immediately going and doing said thing.

Whether innocent or guilty, I think it's a disgusting thing to say.

", it’s very clear from your amusingly naive and rather convoluted defence of the political establishment, that I am not the one who is confused."
Oh dear me.

He has a right to a proper investigation

But there was a proper investigation. As proper and in-depth as it gets. And he was given every single opportunity to co operate with that investigation. It appears he chose not to. And you need to ask yourself why when the leak came from his department. If it was my department, I'd want to bloody know and co operate. Why didn't he? Wouldn't you want to know who the leak was in your department, over something so grave?

He will also have been given the right to defend before he was fired, and been invited to disciplinary hearings, and lawyers will have been present at those meetings to ensure it was handled correctly. He will have had the right to his own lawyers there and likely had them.

The fact he's now publicly shouting he didn't do it and he swears on his kids life, doesn't change any of the facts.

The mans career is over. He will not be likely re elected as mp. And he will possibly face criminal charges that could see him serve time.

What's he going to say, it's a fair cop?

I don't like that phrase at all. His children's lives are their own and not something for him to expend whatever the circumstances, even metaphorically.

I tend not to believe people who swear like this - they have usually come from a background where it is used a lot, and there is need to use it a lot so their idea of the truth is probably flexible.

It certainly sows seeds of doubt. It is in the 'doth protest too much' category.

I detest that phrase. Why doesn’t he swear on his own bloody life?? Awful, awful thing to say.

And it proves nothing. I’ve heard of many, many, nasty cheating, lying twats who used that exact line.

I’m sure this has been said many times over on this thread...

Not a word that ministers (or ex-ministers) say should be believed. They are fundamentally utterly dishonest people. Theresa May says he leaked. Theresa May is a liar. Gavin Williamson says he didn't leak. Gavin Williamson is a liar. There is no way of knowing what actually happened.

A scumbag like Gavin Williamson will have no qualms about swearing on his children's lives as he knows nobody is actually going to come and kill his children if/when he is found to be lying. Think back to Jonathan Aitken and his "simple sword of truth": he was subsequently convicted for perjury.

I am waiting for his wife’s post: “Name changed as outing. My ‘D’H made a gross mistake at work for which he was fired. It is something colleagues constantly do but nothing ever gets investigated so nobody ever gets punished. He is now being made an example of. He believes it is because some colleagues don’t like him. The consequences of owning up to the mistake could be criminal, so he just publicly swore on the lives of our DC that he didn’t do it. AIBU to find this insulting to our DC?”

Tory MPs with leadership ambitions are not known for their honesty. They are better known for stabbing their best mates in the back and pretty much being willing to sell their own mother for the chance to be prime minister.

Such is my cynism for the current crop of senior Tories, I do not see swearing on your children's life as a sign of innocence.

May will be gone soon enough, and with this cloud hanging over him, the only way to save his career will be for Williamson to profess his innocence loudly.

He isn't particularly well known so this scandal gives him an opportunity to get his profile up which will boost his leadership ambitions - especially if he is able to cast himself into the role of the victim of remain beaucrat Sedwill in the press.

It certainly does NOT harm his ambitions despite what this appears to be on the surface. It can only help him with the grassroots Tories.

He is a character who is particularly disliked by Tory MPs themselves. He was chief whip and had a reputation at being good at it. A little too good. He prided himself on his machivellian ways to get others to do what he wanted. He is known for his manipulative ways. He kept a pet tarantula in his office to scare and intimidate. He also has a reputation for leaking ridiculous stories to the press, including some about himself, in order to get what he wants and to raise his profile. The 'Sergant Pike' image isn't necessarily a bad thing - its disarming and makes him sound harmless - the whole eccentic buffon thing has worked well for Johnson.

When he got his job at defence there were LOTS of Tories who made comment about how he had schemed, manipulated and plotted to persuade May to give him the job.

Its got to be said that he has a lot of enemies and 'being honest' isn't the first phrase that people who know him will use to describe him.

He might well be innocent, however the phrase 'couldn't happen to a nicer bloke' is apt, because his previous behaviour and reputation don't lead you to the conclusion that he is innocent and believing his oath. However you cut it, he is a deeply unpleasant man and there aren't many people in parliament who will be rushing to argue to the contrary on that score.

Excuse me if I therefore struggle to find any sympathy for Williamson, even if he is innocent. The situation he finds himself in, is in part, due to his 'previous good character' afterall.

The other thing to remember is it was in Teresa mays interests for it not to be him, overwhelmingly so.

Not just because he was an ally of hers, and she needs the support, it more than that, the Tory government is in crisis, public confidence is low, and the last thing she needs is the defence secretary breaking rhe official secrets act and leaking security information to the media. It just makes a bad situation worse.

It was in her interests for it to be someone else. Anyone but him. So reallythis is the worst possible outcome for her. There is no win for her here, none at all.

Where is the report on that investigation, Bluntness? If he did leak, did he break a law? If so, where is and what was the outcome of the police investigation of all concerned, taking into account the previous internal one you say most definitely took place. 'It appears' doesn't support something as a fact.

You're not doing a Stephen Yaxley-Lennon spouting, are you?

We need to see the evidence either way. I suspect the security services have direct evidence he told someone to leak it or he leaked it but let us see what the evidence shows.

As for swearing on their lives it reminds me of Joanthan Aitkin who talked about the sword of truth in court, got his teenager daughter to lie for him and was then jailed for perjury as he was not telling the truth.

It's a pathetic, meaningless, childish phrase that I don't think well-educated adults generally use.

At least he can't threaten any more of our future trading partners again though In that respect it is a win for May.

However given the unprecedented incompetence this government has shown it's anyone's guess what's going on. I could easily believe GW leaked the info out of ambition. I could believe TM has jumped the gun and not actually seen proof. I could believe the sky was pink if Chris Grayling told me it wasn't.

^^ This.

The phase does nothing either way to my beliefs or lack - though I do think it's an odd one.

I watch and listen to the news daily and he wasn't really on my radar - Penny Mordaunt is but not in any way that's good more a Chris Grayling way.

Gosh, I really don't think this is complicated to understand.

There is no police investigation. It was investigated by the security councils ie mi5. This has been stated publicly. And it's Because they have more investigative powers than the police. For example they can make journalists talk If in the interests of national security. They have access to a lot more than the police do, and can do a lot more than the police, even accessing people's computers and phone records if they deem appropriate, and the technology to do it quickly without having to justify it to anyone. That's their job. And how they keep us safe.

No the investigation has not been published, what has been published is the results of that investigation. Which is they found irrefutable evidence it was him.

The police investigation being demanded is something different. That's not to see if it was him. The reason they are demanding it is because then he would face criminal charges and serve time. That's what they are baying for. They want him sent down. They aren't trying to prove his innocence, they want the man jailed. The people demanding a police investigation are not on his side. They want him to face criminal charges.

And they know if the security services have said ther is irrefutable evidence he is going to jail

Logically you'd think that if the PM has sacked a minister for a breach of security then there must be proof and certainty. However given the unprecedented incompetence this government has shown it's anyone's guess what's going on.

Not a word that ministers (or ex-ministers) say should be believed. They are fundamentally utterly dishonest people. Theresa May says he leaked. Theresa May is a liar. Gavin Williamson says he didn't leak. Gavin Williamson is a liar. There is no way of knowing what actually happened.

Yep.

Not sure why anyone on here is being likened to Yaxley-Lennon - that’s uncalled for.

We don’t know the details of this; today’s UQ may or may not yield further enlightenment (unlikely). I certainly hope that TM has acted in good faith and at least subjectively believed she had enough evidence to do what she did. She was optimistic in trying to draw a line under it last night.

All this statement tells me is that he is not very bright. It isn’t the comment of a measured and thoughtful person. But then measured and thoughtful aren’t adjectives that are often applied to Tory ministers.

Unless he has his constituency taken off him (I don't know how that works?!) he will 100% be re-elected as an MP because South Staffordshire is the safest Tory seat in the country and he won by the largest margin at the last General Election. It has always been Tory since the constituency was created.