To be skeptical of employees illness

[ashvivienne]

A few weeks ago an employee on my team informed me that she had been given a cancer diagnosis quite recently but hadn’t informed us till she knew all the facts and exactly what was happening. She is in the early stages and has informed us that she’ll be receiving chemotherapy which she has now started.
We have had a meeting with our HR department and occupational health staff as she has said she’d like to continue working as long as possible. HR have asked for a letter from her doctor so we can obviously get the ball rolling on accommodations such as reduced hours and time off for appointments on sick pay rather than unpaid leave or holidays. She’s refused to give us any letters that she’s been given none and that if she goes to her GP she’ll need to pay for one (I’m going to discuss it with HR if we can pay for the letter).
She is obviously friends with some people in the office and we have each other on social media. She has been out heavily boozing on numerous nights out even since starting treatment and has even spent this bank holiday out for 3 days not returning home.

Aibu to be skeptical? It feels harsh and part of me does think maybe she is putting on a brave face but there just feels like something isn’t right.

I literally didn't want people to know/feel sorry for me.. This is exactly how I feel right now @Theresomethingaboutdairy.

You can't predict how people will react to cancer news.
And not all cancers are the same. Not all treatments are the same.
So not all cancer patients look and live the same way.
This is very much an HR matter and if I were you I would step away from it. The company must have a policy on this. If it is a small company they can probably go to ACAS for advice, but seriously this is not for you to get stuck into because it could all blow up

But yes people do fake cancer and they do rely on others not knowing what they can and can't ask, or what the sick person can or can't do.

Do you have a rule that your employees with potentially terminal illnesses must act as if they're already dead and not go out with friends or enjoy whatever life they can?

Be scepticcal about the lack of letters, fine. But otherwise you're being totally U and a complete CF twat in your attitude.

Tawdrylocalbrouhaha

She needs to give you a letter confirming the diagnosis. If she is really having chemo there will be no problem obtaining this, or a clinic letter from Oncology to her GP (copied to her) will also clearly state the diagnosis and proposed treatment.

If she cant give you these, she is lying. If she gives them to you only after being pressed, look at them carefully - I work in the NHS and have been contacted by employers who have been given poorly forged letters purporting to be from a certain consultant and hospital. Normally the content gives it away immediately.

I was about to post something similar. Although the employee would have to pay for a GP letter, a cancer patient will have a wealth of correspondence to provide evidence of their treatment without needing to ask for a specific letter.

I would also add that many people feel wiped out in the days following their chemo and so a working pattern of all mornings, might not be ideal. Clearly, this depends very much on the individual, but a pattern of working their "better" days, might be an option.

As other PP say, the social media stuff is a red herring.

I don't think you can draw many conclusions from her social media although I don't think it's unreasonable to sensitively ask for proof of treatment and diagnosis. I would assume there was a standard procedure and HR should be able to do this surely?

Line managers manage. Hr advise. People who are saying it's none of the op's business and Hr will deal with it are wrong ime.

The medical details are none of the OP's business. If the OP is the line manager (which they haven't actually stated) then they will need to know adjustments required and reasonable work expectations which may include a high level title for the illness/condition. Medical details are entirely up to the sick person to share as its private information.

eg X is being treated for a condition which requires them to attend a series of medical appointments, its possible they will be unable to attend at other times due to the effect of the treatment. You should anticipate A and B adjustments.

Anything more is not the LM's business and actually not useful unles the LM has a side line in oncology expertise.

I think it's a bit mean spirited for you to want to re-schedule her two non-working days to fall straight after her treatment days (so the company is not impacted by her absence).

I'd be astonished if OH sanctioned it. This kind of scenario is more likely to result in recommendations to be guided by the sick person during the treatment and to be prepared for both "well" and "sick" scenarios until a pattern has settled.

When I was first diagnosed with cancer I didn't have anything in writing.

I've had quite a few staff over the years affected by life threatening and debilitating illness. Its not uncommon for them to have very little in writing early on and also to be disoriented, frightened and sometimes appear bullish or in denial. HR are the people to manage this until they are ready to share more.

I've never considered it appropriate to stalk them on SM and post to random forums about them lying and skiving because "they don't look sick".

Still, I dare say this will disappear for privacy reasons soon.

I disagree. Ime it's up to line managers to manage their staff and refer to hr for advice. That's how it's been wherever I've worked.
Agree I am assuming op is the lm.

And it's more appropriate for my staff to confide in me and for me to share the basics with hr so we can find out what needs to happen. Otherwise I'm just their project manager surely.

I disagree. Ime it's up to line managers to manage their staff and refer to hr for advice

You can disagree all you like but the OP's medical details are none of the LM's business. That is what HR and OH do. They have the expertise and the separation to so do.

People may choose to share stuff with LMs, that is an entirely different matter. But really would you share stuff about serious illness with a LM included to post to web forums that they thought you were making it up based on some SM photos which showed you to be presenting other than dejected and ill?

And it's more appropriate for my staff to confide in me and for me to share the basics with hr so we can find out what needs to happen. Otherwise I'm just their project manager surely.

No its not more appropriate unless you are qualified to assess the medical adjustments needed.

However if you have a good relationship with staff its quite likely that they will want to share more with you which is fine. Since the OP plainly hasn't been confided in by their colleague/employee they don't seem to have build that trusting relationship.

Her doctor can give a fit note with recommendations on for free

And it's more appropriate for my staff to confide in me and for me to share the basics with hr so we can find out what needs to happen.

It's fine and lovely if they feel close enough to you to do that but it's not more appropriate. Many people don't want to share personal medical information with people they work closely with so would give their evidence to HR who could then inform the LM what accommodations the employee requires.

OK we'll agree to disagree. Where I work it's clear that line managers are there to manage their staff and Hr are there to advise and guide, ensure consistency through policy etc.

You need better HR, this is one for occ health, not a gp letter, FFS.

do you know that many people with cancer are prescribed steroids that can cause them to look rosy cheeked, get quite bullish and have increased energy, even insomnia, while they continue to not only be ill but also are accumulating potentialy irrevesible side effects from the steroids?
Meanwhile have a read of this www.macmillan.org.uk/documents/getinvolved/campaigns/workingthroughcancer/workingthroughcancer2010/workingthroughcancer2010.pdf

I’d be mortified if a colleague or my manager was posting on AIBU instead of seeking proper advice. If you cannot do it, then don’t be a line manager.

Where I work it's clear that line managers are there to manage their staff and Hr are there to advise and guide, ensure consistency through policy etc.

Managing staff - aka scheduling, performance appraisals, routine absensces etc is LM job.

Managing confidential information about a medical condition is not the LM job - that is HR and OH. LMs are lacking the expertise/training to deal with more complex scenarios and should simply direct to HR.

Or to put it another way - you should not be dependent on a LM to both know their legal obligations and be even handed dealing with them. To make this a LM responsibility exposes a company, an LM who assumes that responsiblity exposes a company.

If you are a good LM then staff will share their concerns anyway and you can offer support simply as a decent human being. If you are not a good LM, they shouldn't have to trust or rely on you.

I would imagine that a LM posting on an internet forum about how they stalked an employee's social media, used terms such as 'heavily boozing' and having opinions on employees private holiday time would be guilty of gross misconduct.

OP, I think you need to ask your company for more management training because your behaviour is completely inappropriate and you don't seem to recognise this. Unless, like similar posts on here in the past, you are a jealous colleague or just a complete fantasist.

She doesn't have to tell you as her employer anything. You should refer her to your occupational health department and they can write to the GP for details then they can make a plan with her and then tell you the best way forward. She really doesn't need to discuss her medical condition with you. (I'm a GP and one of my partners is an occupational health doctor as well as a GP so explained all this to me.)

As many others have mentioned, social media is a selective snapshot.

I am dealing with a serious illness right now, and no one but my immediate family and medical team know a thing. That is my choice, and my right.

You need to pay for an occupational health report.

Been beaten to it, you need to tread carefully OP despite your understandable concerns.

OH is your friend here

C8H10N4O2

I'm an HR Manager and you are not really correct in your thinking I'm afraid. Line Managers need to have a understanding of their employee's conditions, disabilities etc to manage them effectively.

How can a line manager, manage their staff if they don't know about any conditions/ disabilities? They can't.

They have a duty to protect and treat any knowledge they have confidentially. And quite frankly if they are unable to do this then they shouldn't be managing people.

OP - You (with HR) need to sit down again with the employee and explain that to support her adequately you need to better understand her condition and the potential impact. This is as much for her as to protect yourselves. Cancer is classed as a disability and therefore is a protected characteristic. Ideally you should be referring her to occupational health at this point.

If your company doesn't have occupational health, you can request her permission to write to her GP, but this takes longer and in my experience the information you receive back isn't often very user friendly!

I’ve had two employees faking cancer over the years. Both admitted to faking at a disciplinary hearing. Both were sacked for gross misconduct.

Check her contract - there is often a clause about the company’s right to request medical evidence. You have a duty of care towards her so in these circumstances it’s usually perfectly fine to exercise that right. If she refuses, that would give rise to further suspicion.

As a PP mentioned though, cancer is a disability so you need to be reasonably careful - if she is taking extended time off, she needs a fit note to be paid SSP (and probably for company sick pay as well). If she doesn’t provide one or unreasonably refuses to allow the company to request medical evidence then that could be misconduct in itself and I would seriously question whether she was telling the truth!

At the moment though I’d be giving her the benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t seem as though she’s absolutely refused to provide evidence and social media shenanigans means very little. Probably only worth raising if and when it becomes an issue (medical concerns, time off, etc).

Line Managers need to have a understanding of their employee's conditions, disabilities etc to manage them effectively.

As I said up thread, they need enough info to honour adjustments needed and expectations around capabilities. They don't need access to the sick person's medical details and shouldn't have it.

How can a line manager, manage their staff if they don't know about any conditions/ disabilities? They can't.

Every OH summary to LMs I've ever seen has managed to summarise needs against a high level description and not provided medical details. Unless the LM is a medical professional with knowledge of the condition it doesn't actually help them to know more medical details. Letters/reports from the medical team should go to HR/OH not LMs.

They have a duty to protect and treat any knowledge they have confidentially. And quite frankly if they are unable to do this then they shouldn't be managing people.

I agree entirely. However we both know there are a great many managers in the latter category. Many of them seem to post here... And as I said upthread - a good LM will hopefully have the relationship where their staff can talk to them anyway.

If LM wants more information than they actually need to do their own job then they should probably consider the quality of the relationship they have established rather than challenge a sick or disabled employees need for some privacy through illness.