Is it cruel to have working dogs?

[williesandwonkas]

I have name changed as I know how people get about animals and I have also seen a thread about dog walking which has provoked this question.

We own a massive sheep farm and have 7 dogs that work alongside us. These are pure working dogs. We do not consider them pets but, they are obviously treated very very well (best vet/best food). From the second we get up in the morning they are expected to work. Like any asset and the way of the farming life stipulates that if they don't and don't provide a benefit they need to be replaced.

I wonder how people perceive working animals compared to pet dogs? Our only friends are farming friends and seeing other people with pet dogs raises questions as to what people think about our situation.

I've lost count of the random strangers that say they feel sorry for my assistance dog having to earn a living and/or suggesting he is too thin. Usually they are dog owners themselves. I have to try very hard not to point out that my dog is far happier using his considerable brain power, getting lots of exercise, always with his favourite person and never having to be left home alone for more than a very occasional hour than their poor dog is likely cooped up at home alone for hours at a time bored out of its brain. Also he isn't thin, every vet agrees he is in perfect condition, lean and muscled. People are just used to seeing fat dogs. Gives me the rage.

Unlike his farming cousins he is a great big softie and would be distraught to sleep anywhere but in his huge cosy dog bed at the foot of the bed.

These two dogs are my youngest dog's Dad and Granddad.

Fleet is the spitting image of his Dad Sweep but the similarity ends there I'm afraid.

Dubbed "The dog that only had one job" he's more "Nah... You know what? Think I'll kick back and lick my balls if it's all the same"

Who is doing that though? Please don't try to make an exception the rule.

It's fascinating really. As a child I just took it for granted that the dogs knew what to do - never occurred to me that they were trained. My grandfather trained them usually but he has since passed. My Dad isn't as good at training as my Grandfather.
We have cattle and sheep, so it's possibly different to a dog just herding sheep.
I can guarantee you that none of them are mistreated. They are an investment. There is no way that you would mistreat your working dog. They cost a lot of money 1k at least for a well bred working breed.

However we had a rescue dog once - a beautiful lab who turned out to be madder than a box of frogs.

He had been tied up and tormented as a guard dog, and was so aggressive we just couldn’t keep him as he bit chunks out of anyone who came close. Completely maltreated and untameable.

Fortunately a police dog handler took him on but he was a real handful.

Absolutely nothing wrong with working dogs. These dogs thrive in this environment, it’s what they love to do.

The post which annoyed me though was by the person who mentioned about the dogs being PTS when they can no longer work! I’m hoping that this isn’t a favoured practise amongst the farming community but rather an old practise, still being the chosen method of ‘retirement’ for some backward thinking owners!

This is the only aspect of working dogs I actually would question and at least one poster has made me wonder how many other dogs meet this fate.

Apart from farming working dogs, you have police dogs, Greyhounds, guide dogs etc. I’ve heard horror stories about Greyhounds, a ‘sport’ which I hope is eventually stopped, being ‘retired’! A friend of mine has adopted a couple, they are happy, they aren’t suffering because they no longer do a job which they ‘love’, there was no need to PTTS because to not do so would cause them more anguish They are perfectly happy in their new home and are thriving, it just takes time and this is probably what isn’t convenient to the poster who prefers to PTS rather than letting that dog enjoy a happy retirement.

So to sum up, working dogs, no issue, retired working dogs, let’s not dispose of them as if they’re an old piece of furniture past its sell by date.

Great dogs Parly, thanks for sharing

I think people get rescue dogs and think a walk a day is enough. Our dogs are out with Dad all day long. Sometimes herding, sometimes just watching him fencing or something. It's sheer adulation lol. The loyalty is immense. But the striking thing for me is that while they will obey any command my father gives, they ignore anyone else giving the same command.

I think my Dad's commands are thus:

Away to me = Go to the left
Come by = Go to the right
Stay = Stay

They love their work bless them.

@Sweetmarmalade I can guarantee you that dogs are not pts because they no longer work. Only when they're in pain, same as you would with a pet dog, to put them out of pain.

Sunlov, that’s absolutely fine, the kindest thing, as long as you’re not talking about a bit of arthritis pain, which can be easily treated, but another poster commented about retired dogs being pts, not when they’re suffering, this I will never understand.

What jobs can I give my Jack Russell to do? We live on the coast and near woods and rural walks. He was brought up in London and doesn't really know how to be a rural dog although he is gradually learning. He chases cats but backs off if he catches up with them so I don't see him being much good at ratting or similar. He is very spoilt, hyper, aggressive sometimes and very clever. He knows how to do something after being shown once but generally won't do anything unless he senses a payoff for him. He is beautiful, always getting compliments for his looks, funny and affectionate (when he isn't growling nipping and biting). We love him beyond reason.

BTW he is a Battersea boy and we are his third family.

I have springers. They need to ‘work’ daily so we do scent work, retrieves, dummy work. One of them would be bored without this kind of stimulation and would make his own entertainment whereas his brother is quite happy to be a pet only. My other two would have been rubbish gundogs, one was gun shy, one preferred sunbathing to working. Neither needed to work, despite being from a long line of field champions.

An awful lot of springers fail at being a drugs or gundog. A friend has rescued multiple dogs who would otherwise have been shot for being too old or not good enough to make it in the chosen field. From a litter of say 12, not all will be any good at working or will even end up in a working home.

I dislike the whole buy a dog because it’s trendy, like huskies are so popular due to GoT. They aren’t first time owner dogs, might be better off doing a job and the amount that have been turned into rescue has risen significantly recently. Both Peter Dinklage and Jerome Flynn have made public pleas asking people to stop buying them.

I had a jrt and she loved to play fetch with a tennis ball.
I also brought her with me on runs.

Not all working dogs get happy endings.

I spent a year researching reactive greyhounds. I had hoped to rehome one.

I've personally visited different kennels and I'm disgusted by what I'm told about the 80-100 in each kennels (I don't mean all together, I refer to the kennels as the unit of care, not the literal kennel space) and it wasn't that long ago that people started setting up rescue kennels for retired or failed greys.

Many are still PTS.

Many spend most of all of their retired lives in the rescue kennels.

@Sunlov

Absolutely spot on re: working dogs being well cared for as are the cattle, sheep or whatever. Makes my piss boil to hear people slating and ripping on farmers saying they're all cruel, they don't care about their animals, cause them all kinds of injury and illness and it's nearly always from people that haven't actually stepped foot near a farm never mind seen and experienced things first hand.

Understand and have time and patience for people that just don't know and genuinely curious to learn more about how things work but I haven't an ounce for idiots.

Farming doesn't pay as well as most people think to start with so farmers don't mistreat, neglect, abuse or harm their animals which are their livelihood. If you mistreat or neglect your animals you either have to pay out for veterinary care or if you don't bother – you'll lose money when the time comes to sell on.

There will always be the few bad apples and farming practices that really are shocking but it's the few not the majority (at least not in this part of England anyway)

Same way some people think the sheep are harassed, chased and bitten by dogs – they're not. The lunge-nip reflex is there but a last resort and most good dogs won't need to step it up to that level and can move livestock largely through eye and movement.

My eldest is brilliant for that she's friendly, good-natured and will go waggling and wiggling up to sheep like she's best friends with them but won't tolerate any that start trying to stare her down or stamp their feet. Literally goes back almost “Lemme just go sort this fucker out here I won't be a sec... Sheep. Move your ass or Imma move it for you” and off they go “OK OK I'm going... Gawd”

There's a dairy farm near us and I swear to God those cows are better cared for, better kept, fed and looked after than most family pets. Lass that runs it with her family is a diamond and frequently posts videos on FB of these cows all up to no good letting themselves in and out the milking room, milling, being where they shouldn't and generally causing mischief.

Every single one has a name too. My favourite is PETA. She has a cow named PETA

As the saying goes in the farming industry “Look after your animals – your animals will look after you”

Pics of dog doing goon face "Hi sheepies sheeps!!" and turning up the eye when she encounters a rebel that stamps its feet at her.

@joystir
My ex London rescue JRT x likes to chase grey squirrels in the park. I can see him go into hunting mode when we get to the area with lots of squirrels. He's never caught one, but the instinct is still there! He's told me about household rodents twice when there's been no other evidence of them.

Fetch with balls is a favourite, to the point of obsession. Sometimes we play tennis ball search and rescue in the living room. If you have a flyball club locally it would be another good option.

I mix up our walks by doing doggy parkour - I've taught him to jump onto things like fallen logs and walk along them for treats.

He digs in molehills on command.

Have you joined the Canine Enrichment Facebook group?

Just reading back and had to laugh out loud at this one

“Lemme just go sort this fucker out here I won't be a sec... Sheep. Move your ass or Imma move it for you” and off they go “OK OK I'm going... Gawd”

@SweetMarmalade

Missed the post where someone said they put the dog to sleep when they couldn't work, but it's really not something most farmers would do.

Farming is a tough game and not for the faint hearted. Livestock are treated as such, but dogs are not. Dogs are more like employees.
I rang my Dad about 3 years ago and all he could talk about was his bull getting out and ending up in a fight with our neighbour's bull, then in a ditch and dying. That was about 6k he lost.
Farmers do look after their animals. Particularly small holdings (Dad has about 120 acres). Bigger farms would have employees working the farm.
I frequently hear it on here that farmers are cruel. They're not. It wouldn't be in their best interests to be cruel even if they were that way inclined.

My father knows every cow and sheep. Not sure how, but he just does. He doesn't have names for them, but he knows their entire history.

I think my Dad's commands are thus:

Away to me = Go to the left
Come by = Go to the right
Stay = Stay

More likely to be the other way around with the first two - away to me is usually anticlockwise around the sheep and come by is clockwise.

We also use:
Lie down (my friend has a dog whose name has extended to Lie-Down-Jock because his stop isn't always that successful!)
Stand (when you need the dog to be a bit more visible/stronger to the sheep than a lie down)
Walk up (move slowly towards the sheep, vary the pace by using a more excitable tone of voice if you want them to walk faster)
Steady (slows down a walk up)
That'll do (job done, come back to me)

My current exercise from my teacher is to stand in the middle of the sheep and then get my dog to move round them in each direction just a fraction at a time, so if you think of a clock face, then from 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock, 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock and so on. It's to develop finer control for penning them up and should look like the dog is drawing daisy petals around the outside. I can do it reasonably well on her sheep, who are very used to dogs, but I've got some old and wily hill sheep and when they get bored of training sessions they'll take themselves off to the sheep paths on the edge of a very steep cliff where they know I daren't send the dog after them!