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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Is it cruel to have working dogs?

171 replies

williesandwonkas · 21/04/2019 23:01

I have name changed as I know how people get about animals and I have also seen a thread about dog walking which has provoked this question.

We own a massive sheep farm and have 7 dogs that work alongside us. These are pure working dogs. We do not consider them pets but, they are obviously treated very very well (best vet/best food). From the second we get up in the morning they are expected to work. Like any asset and the way of the farming life stipulates that if they don't and don't provide a benefit they need to be replaced.

I wonder how people perceive working animals compared to pet dogs? Our only friends are farming friends and seeing other people with pet dogs raises questions as to what people think about our situation.

OP posts:
Drogosnextwife · 22/04/2019 08:31

@motherheroic

Unfortunately a lot of them are, as are racehorses. Everyone goes mad about that, because its cruel, not sure why this is different to some people.

Drogosnextwife · 22/04/2019 08:32

Yes, in this context I think I do know best. I can look at my life and rationally say “well, when I was younger, I loved running up mountains. When I got a bit older, I walked and older still, I still for pleasure from looking at videos of other people doing it. And I also have found lots of other interests that suit my age and capabilities. So my life is as good as it ever was, but different. This is not something a dog can do.

Yes, I know you have basically already said this.

Doobigetta · 22/04/2019 08:37

It’s completely unfair to say that cats don’t fucking care. They do. They just care about themselves more.

Drogosnextwife · 22/04/2019 08:38

You clearly haven’t a clue drogo. No point even trying to explain to you.

Or maybe there is no point because you can't explain.

nomilknosugarplease · 22/04/2019 08:48

Ahhh I agree completely with that ‘adoring look’ that’s been mentioned twice now. My BIL is a farmer and the dogs literally stare up at him waiting for his every move. They seem so in sync too, he only has to look at them and they’ll somehow know what he wants... I’ve been trying to explain it to DP for a while as he’s never seen them so I’ll show him this thread!

SomewhereInbetween1 · 22/04/2019 08:53

Technically one of my spaniels is a working Cocker spaniel and I don't feel one iota of guilt for not working her. She lives in the countryside, is walked 4 times a day in a landscape she loves, and gets cuddles most of the evening. She is well-loved, stimulated and happy. She does not need to work.

Brilliantidiot · 22/04/2019 09:36

I don't think it's cruel to have a working dog, I live near a few farms and the dogs are well cared for, have their needs met and are exceptionally loyal. They're not 'fussy' dogs, they look to their master for praise and him/her alone. Quite one person dogs. I also know a few people that have working breeds as pets, and the ones who seem the happiest are the ones who are stimulated by the owners in a similar way to what their 'job' would be. My JRT is from a pet mum and working dad, she's a pet, but, I do try and fullfil her instinct to rat and mouse, ball 'work' is her favourite thing in the world, and I throw the ball into undergrowth and long grass so she can go a searching for it in a similar way to looking for a rat. It's not just exercise that working dogs thrive on, it's the bond between them and their human and the 'work' part of it for their breed that needs
fulfilling. I have friends with horses and we go to the stables sometimes and she goes off ratting with friends other terriers and thoroughly enjoys herself, and is very effective. She also likes to sit on my lap of an evening! I do think cooped up and not stimulated she'd probably be destructive, in fact when she's not had the right exercise and stimulation she gets bouncy and excitable.
And I think with regards to putting a dog down at the end of it's working life, it depends on the dog. If they're happy to take that step back naturally and sit around the farm more, and retire themselves then I don't think it's a problem, but I have known dogs that literally can't retire, they push themselves to the detriment of their health, unable to walk the next day and if left behind they pine and need to be locked away to stop them attempting to still go and go crazy trying to get out and go and do their job with their master. A local farmer had this with one of his older dogs, he had two that were older and one quite happy to stay and 'guard' the farm, the other went missing a few times because she tried to follow him and the younger dogs and couldn't keep up, and ended up exhausted trying. He locked her away when he was leaving and she chewed her way out. Seriously unhappy dog, she was PTS, it was much kinder.

BertrandRussell · 22/04/2019 09:36

I was chatting to one of the local farmers about my Border, and he asked if she worked. I had to confess that she is a gun shy wimp. He said “ A fireside dog. We need them too”

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 22/04/2019 13:13

He eats working dog food though (the wagg brand) does that increase his energy? Are we better off going for a different food to calm him a little?

@boilersontheblink I'm afraid Wagg is very low quality food - the equivalent of feeding your child smarties, tango and chips at every meal and then wondering why your child is hyperactive. If nothing else it's worth switching for the sake of long term health.

Www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk is an excellent site for finding nutritionally sound dog foods at sensible prices.

Then again working cockers are bonkers so changing food won't leave you with a lap dog!

AvocadosBeforeMortgages · 22/04/2019 13:19

So long as a dog is well looked after when they're not working and when they're retired (including adequate heating if kennelled outside) then I think they have excellent lives.

I've often thought that police dogs in particular have great lives - simulation all day and home to their handler's sofa at night.

pigsDOfly · 22/04/2019 13:32

Yes, a working life for a working breed seems ideal to me. As long as they're treated well, fed well, kept healthy and warm. What better life could they have?

There must be thousands of working type dogs that are kept as pet that are under exercised and under stimulated; that to me is cruel.

I'm a bit of a sucker for police dog programmes on tv. Love to see the way the dogs seem to really love their work and seem so fulfilled.

Babyroobs · 22/04/2019 13:34

We have an unemployed working cocker spaniel and I do sometimes think he would be happier with a job. His mum works the moors picking up pheasants after a shoot and seems to have a nice life although very basic - isn't really allowed in the house or spoiled etc. My friend who I bought her from used to live on land where her dh was a gamekeeper and they had working dogs. I went to visit her with my kids when they were young and stumbled around the back of the house to find these dogs in very basic concrete kennels with huge piles of dogshit piled up at the side of the kennel. I felt quite distraught about their situation for a long time but I guess they do hopefully spend time out of the kennels and have never known any different. I have to kind of detach my friend's dh's work from my thoughts as we have been friends a long time but country life is very different.

megletthesecond · 22/04/2019 13:36

Yanbu.
Bright, active working dogs should work.
Collies aren't suited to being pets.

MotherOfTheNoise · 22/04/2019 14:13

I grew up on a farm, and the working dogs have the best life. We had a pet Labrador who used to try and help the working dogs herding sheep but he was utterly clueless, very funny to watch though. The older ones were forever trying to train him up and he was very enthusiastic in his efforts. He was also very happy lying in front of a fire doing sweet FA. The working dogs would have hated that!!

Parly · 22/04/2019 15:14

Not at all the difference between working dogs and family pets / companions is night and day.

Working dogs such as collies live, breathe and need to work it's in them and the instinct there from the day they're born until they retire themselves or breathe their last.

Not all have the instinct or inclination to work (we have one of each - youngest came to us as a non-worker from a farm owned by Robin Dean who also has training kennels and two international supreme's under his belt)

The ones that have an instinct need to work are not suited nor happy in the average family home.

It's always hard trying to explain to people that for these dogs work is its own reward. My eldest lives to work hard and her reward for having done it is more work.

Youngest is a fat-arsed, lazy git that just loves food and cuddles he's as far away from a working dog as its gets. His Dad is the current and five time world champion and his brother from the same litter recently sold for nearly £4000

Both are happy but both have very, very different needs.

Link to clip with Robin explaining about working border collies and trials and one of his dogs that falls into the category of a collie that needs and loves to work :)

Sunlov · 22/04/2019 16:48

We have an unemployed working cocker spaniel and I do sometimes think he would be happier with a job. PMSL. I actually laughed my head off! Get him down to the jobcentre!

percheron67 · 22/04/2019 16:57

Working dogs are happy. Dogs love to work, achieve and receive a pat. My neighbours replaced their sedate dog with a Border Collie and he is an aggressive dangerous nightmare mainly because they don't know how to treat him. Rarely taken out because they cannot control him and he is becoming more neurotic and out of control. He should never have gone to them but, I am sure, he would have been happier on a farm. I am not saying that no one should have working dogs as pets but should make sure that they can train one properly. It is harder than some folk think and needs a good "common sense" attitude.

Sunlov · 22/04/2019 16:59

@Parly Loved that clip.
It's amazing what they can do, running from side to side to herd the sheep. When I was young, our dog was injured/sick/can't remember/out of action.

It took the whole family to herd the sheep into the pen. 5 of us! And even then one sheep would get away!

What the dogs do is brilliant. They're so fit and fast.

What I loved about the video is he mentioned the 1 in a million dog he had. My Dad had one, however, said dog, would get a sniff of a bitch in heat a mile away and mid herding, take off through the fields to get to her! My Dad's words were something like 'He's brilliant but fucking useless!'.

jemihap · 22/04/2019 17:02

Nothing wrong at all with having working sheep dogs, but there's a lot wrong with the way many of them are kept... I see it on a daily basis working and visiting properties in a very rural area.

Collies left chained up in yards or locked in metal cages nothing but concrete to lie on, with no protection at all from the elements.

Springerfan · 22/04/2019 17:07

Love that clip! He talks about his dogs with such affection. My springer dragged herself from her bed when she heard the whistles on my phone...then wandered off again
I guess not all working breeds want a job Hmm

thethoughtfox · 22/04/2019 17:08

It's cruel not to work them.

Sunlov · 22/04/2019 17:12

This is cool

Sunlov · 22/04/2019 17:26

@jemihap My Dad's dogs live in their own shed with straw. They are as content as Lords. The are chained at night, but on long chains, so when they're in for the night, they can wander freely around their shed and outside for I'd say about 12 feet. The alternative would be locking them into the shed.
It's hard to describe working dogs, but they're just not like pet dogs. They only obey one master and that's it.

If you can imagine a four year old happily bouncing off to school with Mummy, that's what these pair are like. They work hard, then they just relax for the evening and night.

It would not be in anyone's interests to mistreat them.

They are chained, as they could leap fences and get out very easily. It's not cruelty, it's necessity.
They love nobody other than my Dad. It's funny to watch. It's like he's God, while they trot along, one on either side of him.

jemihap · 22/04/2019 17:46

sunlov - There's nothing wrong with the conditions you describe, but I'm talking about dogs that have no shelter and no bedding, you can see the callouses on there limb joints from where they have to constantly lie on bare concrete.

Parly · 22/04/2019 17:48

@Sunlov

That's exactly it – to date nothing has been more effective to work, herd and manage sheep than dogs. Many have tried and at one point there was talk of drones potentially making working sheepdogs redundant but whilst they have the ability to move and generally manoeuvre a large number of sheep, there's still nothing that beats a dog.

Read an article years ago that said it would take the equivalent of three or four pro-athletes to do the work of one dog. The level of fitness, endurance, stamina and athletic ability to manage that amount of work over different terrain and in all weather conditions is unreal.

Robin is a really decent chap and fascinating to listen to and watch. He's a judge for the International sheepdog trials and has training kennels on his farm with a long waiting list of people paying a fair bit to have him train their dogs for work.

Think he's one of the typically old-fashioned farmers / handlers that on the outside comes over as a bit of a hard, cold and quite harsh sod but underneath a real soft-hearted soul you only see in little glimpses now and again.

When he talks about Roy you can feel and see him getting emotional talking with such genuine feeling Sad

My youngest was / is the most useless sheepdog that ever lived. Robin bought him for a pretty amount being the son and Grandson of world champions and tried to bring him on and get him going for work but when it's not there – it's not there.

He was reckoning to be all put out and pissed off at having lost money on this dog that wouldn't do a sodding thing but when we went to bring him home he had the same little flicker of emotion and sincerity in his voice saying “I'm glad he's going home with you... He's not a worker and he's no good to me but he's a lovely little lad and deserves a nice home”

Then a second later “Anyway go on beggar off you've already annoyed me having the one dog that is right up my street and taking another home that's cost me a bob already go sod off” Wink

Later found out from his wife Eileen they were offered more money from people on the agility circuit that wanted him but they turned them down in favour of him coming to us instead.

Remember when my daughter was at the farm asking what all the different voice commands and whistles were and Robin explained how his “thing” was running brace (two dogs at the same time on different sets of whistles)

He got two of his dogs, whistled and made some R2D2 type squeaks and whistles and off they went legging it flat out way off in the distance and he just carried on talking. My daughter was there “What.. your dogs have gone they ran like way off over that hill do you know they've gone?”

“Yeah course you watch in a minute... they go off, split up and one does a full perimeter run on the left, the other does the right to make sure there's no sheep stuck or come to grief and then they'll meet up and in a minute start bringing them back”

Minute later this enormous almost cloud like mass of white just appeared in the distance and carefully - almost elegantly stayed in a nice ball without any panic or chaos and these two little black dots at either side nudging them all the way down until Robin whistled again and that told them to bring them through into a large barn / side paddock.

Closest thing I've seen is the video of the LED sheepdog viral clip. The large sheep walking across the hills is what Robin's sheep looked like when the dogs were bringing them back it's incredible.