To wonder if this is normal behaviour for a 2 year old?

[2yearoldbattler]

Am a regular MNer but have name changed, partially as I feel disloyal to my kids even typing this, but also because am wondering if I am a terrible parent and will be flamed accordingly

I have DS, 2y3m and DD, 14w. DS has always been a bit tricky with his behaviour - an interesting combination of separation anxiety (from me) and utter stubbornness.

Basically he just point blank refuses to do anything he doesn’t want to do. This has been going on since he was around 15 months old. The problem is that the list of things he doesn’t like doing has been growing exponentially, to the point that he now just pretty much refuses to do anything you suggest. And I mean ANYTHING - if you suggest going out he wants to stay in. Vice versa. Nappy changes are like ww3. Getting dressed requires stealth trickery. He basically doesn’t wear shoes (we’re in the Southern Hemisphere so it’s just been summer). The only things I draw a firm line on are safety related - so in his car seat, being clean etc. we are now at the point where he’s having pretty much constant tantrums every day, and it’s absolutely exhausting getting from sunrise to sunset.

DH is away at the moment and I’ve just had a 2.5 hour bedtime battle with him to wash himself - we’ve been out in the dirt today and he’s absolutely filthy plus he did a revolting poo that I had to clean up quickly as he gets cross at nappy changes so it’s hard to get him properly clean. In the end I just got into the shower with him fully clothed as I figured he needed to be clean and i wasn’t going to win the battle. He’s now sitting next to me in his PJs watching some Peppa as it’s the only way to calm him whilst I feed my newborn who is still cluster feeding in the evenings. I feel like crying. My newborn is traumatised. I never shout or get angry but he screams and rages and hits me on the arm and bangs on the door when I leave the room.

Am starting to think something is wrong with him. Surely it can’t be normal to just be fighting every. Single. Move. Every. Single. Day. I read articles that say things like “50% of children have a tantrum once a week” and i just laugh hollowly - we’d be lucky to have a day with less than 5.

My parents think he is a “problem child” although he is extremely charming when he wants to be. When we’re out and about he is pretty much perfectly behaved. He’s very empathetic to his little friends. Strangers compliment him on his manners ffs! He just turns into a little wild child at home. He’s also extremely verbal so in theory he shouldn’t have any problem communicating.

Basically, help!

Following with interest. I have had a tough time recently with 2 year old and next dc is imminent. Every day he adds a thing to his list of "don't like it"... Tooth brushing. Hair washing. Hair cutting. Bath. Nappy. Moisturiser. Nursery. But he acts like I'm torturing him, and it comes out of the blue where he was happy with this thing the day before. I think I have a decent grip on toddler psycology, I try so hard to be neutral, patient, give him words for feelings, give him two choices, make a joke or of things and have a laugh. Not let him see my frustration. Be firm but gentle, set clear routines and boundaries. But tonight, I just could not be bothered. I'm fed up, I'm exhausted from talking and thinking and doing, cajoling, explaining, only for a protest or a meltdown. I'm like... What's the point. Why am I wasting all this energy. I'm fed up! And if I have a c section, I may not even get him up the stairs for bathtime.

Sorry, I know it's not about me but I just wanted to say I feel your struggle

to all of you who are struggling. It’s so tough.

I am 99% confident that he is not autistic - he doesn’t have any other typical issues there. He’s had a very well developed sense of empathy from a young age, he’s not obsessive or focused on one thing in particular, he’s incredibly social etc. I don’t see that. He’s just so emotionally intense. And I have so much sympathy for him as I can see he’s struggling - but it is also so so annoying and stressful. I come home from work and walk into 3 hours of on and off whinging and tantrumming before he finally consents to going to sleep for a few hours before waking up in the middle of the night screaming for us. Meanwhile his 9 month old sister is jolly and happy and just nods off like clockwork at 730pm and isn’t up again until 730am the next morning!

I don’t see the HV, no - it’s not a regular thing around here. I have a catch up with his most lovely Montessori nursery head next week so may see what she says and take it from there.

And...it’s 1030pm and he’s up and screaming again

Screaming he wants me, screaming while I sit next to his bed, screaming that I can’t leave and he wants me to stay. Can’t cope with this every night.

Honestly? My son behaves like this when he is tired. I would start with the poor sleep (waking screaming etc). Does he nap? Perhaps he needs to. Does he have good sleep habits?

Oh OP, I feel for you. My son has had a few full-on screaming rages and it's no fun at all. What worked for us was refusing to tolerate it at all. Every time you give in (even on something small) it encourages more of the same behaviour. DS at 2.5 decided one day he would not brush his teeth - screamed like we were murdering him. We tried the usual cajoling, distracting but eventually we said either you brush your teeth or you go in your bedroom on your own. He refused. So we put him in his bedroom and he carried on screaming and even chewing the duvet. Went in every few minutes to ask if he was ready to brush his teeth. 40 minutes later, he gave up, had a cuddle and I brushed his teeth. A few days later it was the same thing with his PJs going on. He spent 20 mins in his room that time. Now if he doesn't want to do something that he has to (eg get dressed) I find 95% of the time if I say you can either do x or go in your room on your own, he will cooperate. So now we're down to 1-2 tantrums a week and usually over new things each time not repeats.

A naughty step works too. But it's important to establish the boundaries of what you will and will not allow.

I’m not saying I have any advice already given but is it possible he’s battling anything that is more grown up than what his baby sister gets? My Mum had this issue with my youngest brother and sister, DBro was a lovely sunny boy who was really proud when he got to using potty, having baths and helping with cleaning himself etc. Then when DSis was born he saw how she was treated as a baby (being carried a lot, gentle baths in the baby tub, bottle feeding rather than meals) and anything he then had to do that made him more ‘grown up’ than her made him go into full on demon toddler mode.

I don’t think my Mum was able to do much to stem the flow at first, but when DSis got a bit older and could play with him a bit more he calmed down. Whenever she was being held for a bottle their Dad (my Stepdad) would hold him and give him some milk with a straw in a bottle so he didn’t feel he was missing out. It worked a little - also they let him back into his cot (with the sides off) as they’d not long since graduated him to a bed.

The HV said they were pandering and he would regress if they babied him too much, but they worked on the positive reinforcement with his meal eating, going out, having a bath in the big bath etc alongside it.

Apologies if this has already been suggested or if you have tried already but just wanted to mention

For what it’s worth DBro is now a typical 17 year old lad with no behavioural issues outside mumbling rather than speaking and trying to get my Mum or DSis to make him food because he CBA

FWIW my son has always been social and showed virtually none of the “red flag” signs you expect to see with ASD (his only red flags have been speech delay... and being male). For a long time I have been very unsure that autism was at the root of his difficulties. It only became clearer very recently, since his 4th birthday in fact.

But I’m not here to pathologise your son or try to convince you that it’s ASD, obviously. But in my previous post, I felt like it was important to use the term “non-neurotypical” to encompass other diagnoses that can cause young children to have these meltdowns and rages and to resist everything a parent asks of them. With hindsight, I can see that that was what I was dealing with. I feel bad for thinking they were just naughty, or difficult (or determined to ruin my life, on really bad days ).

I hope things settle down with time and a bit more maturity/a bit less sibling rivalry.

OP, much of what you say sounds like my DS at that age, who was diagnosed with autism and ADHD when he was 8. His presentation for both is pretty subtle (he’s always been precociously articulate, and very sociable. He can be very empathetic, but since learning about Theory of Mind I can identify where he struggles with alternative points of view).

Like previous posters, I don’t want to insinuate that’s what us going on with your child, or pathologise his behaviour. But it might be worth reading up behaviour strategies for managing children with autism / ADHD anyway, as they can be helpful for children who really can’t regulate their emotions for whatever reason.

There’s a good book called Raising Your Spirited Child which I found helpful when DS was very small.

He sounds demand avoidant - might be worth looking into strategies to deal with that. I find that phrasing things differently "When you have done x and y, then we can do z" can be helpful. Or using timers, so that it's not you giving the command, its the timer. "The Explosive Child" is a good book that focusses on strategies, rather than worrying about particular diagnoses.

There's nothing wrong with him. But, it does sound like his needs aren't being met - because he can't communicate them to you (and probably doesn't even understand them himself). Sometimes "traditional" parenting strategies don't work on some children, and actually make things worse. That is very much the case for my daughter. We believe she has ASD, and started using strategies designed for children with ASD when she was four. Things immediately got better, and have continued to improve. Am not saying your son has ASD, but that it sounds like he needs something that falls outside the scope of traditional parenting. Maybe some different strategies could be helpful, and ASD strategies might be a good place to start.

It's so hard when they fight you every step of the way. And when you see other parents with happy, relaxed children. But, I would agree that his behaviour falls outside the scope of "expected" toddler behaviour - even with a new baby.

Sometimes "traditional" parenting strategies don't work on some children, and actually make things worse.

I agree @Areyoufree. It doesn’t sound like the OP’s son would respond well to naughty step/“don’t give in!” type parenting. In my house, that would escalate the situation beyond belief.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts.

To the PP who asked if he was tired - I have no doubt he’s exhausted. I just can’t get him to sleep! He does in theory have a nap but it’s 50:50 as to whether he goes down for it each day.

I shall read up on ASD strategies and try some out. So far nothing I have tried works (eg the PP who suggested phrasing it as “if we do...”, tried that and he just looks at me as if I’m mad and says “no mummy, well do Z first THEN we can do X”). Let’s see how we go!

Well my son is going from bad to worse. He now spends most of the day crying and whinging. Has refused to go to nursery for last 3 days - cannot get him changed without hysterical screaming and tantrumming. Constantly screaming he wants mummy and daddy but when we are around he won’t do anything. Not eating breakfast and not eating much for lunch or dinner. Waking up 2-3 times a night screaming.

Am now worried that he’s in some kind of deep psychological distress. Am trying to figure out what the best place to take him is in terms of a health professional.

I’m sorry things are so bad.

I think you need to see a paediatrician. IIRC you’re not in the U.K.?

I think he needs to see the GP. Could he be ill or in pain?

That’s what I’m wondering @Mrsfrumble

We are not in UK but have a very similar system here. So it’s a paediatrician I need to get him in front of?

I would say so, yes. By all means see your family doctor to rule out illness, but since it seems to be more of a longstanding behavioural thing, I would definitely want a paed to see him.

I think whoever is the usual first port of call where you are OP. I hope you can get him seen promptly, and rule out illness and injury at least

How are you getting on OP? Has your son settled down at all?

He's so little and I know it's easy to say that from a distance but he really is just a baby.Our oldest child behaved a bit like that, I recall having to hold her down to brush her teeth or change her nappy.She became a high flyer who was always mature beyond her years and has progressed to a very Senior managerial level just a few years after graduating. Looking back she always had a huge strength of character and the nappy rows etc look minor but I think also were unavoidable.

I suggest always smiling at him, so he doesn't think something negative is about to happen. You'll feel quite odd doing it but it worked for mine, even if what I was saying was negative 'Time for Peppa Pig to go off now', they just seemed more receptive and accepting if I had a smiley face. Maybe currently the baby gets all the smiley faces and he gets the frowney faces.

Sorry your having such a difficult time!
As an early years professional and a mum of 4 I don’t think your sons behaviour is typical and I would also be looking into Asd. Asd can present in a number of ways and some children can mask their difficulties extremely well, some children with Asd present very typically, can appear social and have an extensive vocabulary but sometimes the mask slips which can lead to extreme tantrums and a constant need for control!
I’m no expert but your child’s behaviour although the extreme side of normal at 2 and with a new sibling has now gone past the realms of “typical behaviour” and you clearly need help and support- the world seems a frightening place for him at the moment I hope things gets sorted for you both!

Thank you for all your messages and sorry for late response. @Mrsfrumble he has settled a little but those dynamics are still there and a bit worrying tbh. I have now spoken to his nursery and doctor and they all think it is fine - but I just have this niggle that something isn’t right. I am not sure there is much I can do really, he’s always so well behaved for paeds and the school!