To wonder if this is normal behaviour for a 2 year old?

[2yearoldbattler]

Am a regular MNer but have name changed, partially as I feel disloyal to my kids even typing this, but also because am wondering if I am a terrible parent and will be flamed accordingly

I have DS, 2y3m and DD, 14w. DS has always been a bit tricky with his behaviour - an interesting combination of separation anxiety (from me) and utter stubbornness.

Basically he just point blank refuses to do anything he doesn’t want to do. This has been going on since he was around 15 months old. The problem is that the list of things he doesn’t like doing has been growing exponentially, to the point that he now just pretty much refuses to do anything you suggest. And I mean ANYTHING - if you suggest going out he wants to stay in. Vice versa. Nappy changes are like ww3. Getting dressed requires stealth trickery. He basically doesn’t wear shoes (we’re in the Southern Hemisphere so it’s just been summer). The only things I draw a firm line on are safety related - so in his car seat, being clean etc. we are now at the point where he’s having pretty much constant tantrums every day, and it’s absolutely exhausting getting from sunrise to sunset.

DH is away at the moment and I’ve just had a 2.5 hour bedtime battle with him to wash himself - we’ve been out in the dirt today and he’s absolutely filthy plus he did a revolting poo that I had to clean up quickly as he gets cross at nappy changes so it’s hard to get him properly clean. In the end I just got into the shower with him fully clothed as I figured he needed to be clean and i wasn’t going to win the battle. He’s now sitting next to me in his PJs watching some Peppa as it’s the only way to calm him whilst I feed my newborn who is still cluster feeding in the evenings. I feel like crying. My newborn is traumatised. I never shout or get angry but he screams and rages and hits me on the arm and bangs on the door when I leave the room.

Am starting to think something is wrong with him. Surely it can’t be normal to just be fighting every. Single. Move. Every. Single. Day. I read articles that say things like “50% of children have a tantrum once a week” and i just laugh hollowly - we’d be lucky to have a day with less than 5.

My parents think he is a “problem child” although he is extremely charming when he wants to be. When we’re out and about he is pretty much perfectly behaved. He’s very empathetic to his little friends. Strangers compliment him on his manners ffs! He just turns into a little wild child at home. He’s also extremely verbal so in theory he shouldn’t have any problem communicating.

Basically, help!

Listen to your instincts. If you think there's some underlying issue then follow it up now, don't wait.

Have to say, it all sounds awfully like any of my brood at that age/stage! Age 2-3 is very, very hard. I have one in it at the minute and she’s as changeable as the weather, the others apart from the newborn are all out the other side and grew into confident, decent older children.
Try and get as much social interaction for him as you can, that helps. Oh and don’t worry if you have to abandon trolley, carry him out of a shop rigid as a board and screaming blue murder, fighting you, fighting getting in car seat etc...the one of mine who did that is wonderful now! Don’t be afraid to be in control either, you’re the adult and do generally know more than your toddler, don’t let them rule!

Sounds reasonably normal. My DD was definitely like this and you have a small age gap with the new sibling so with that in the mix it’s even more intense

My DD also doesn’t care about reward charts either. However I made her a chart which set out her morning routine as she would bring me to the point of tears most mornings especially if we had to go somewhere. So when each thing was done she would tick it off by sticking a Velcro backed picture next to the appropriate task.

I also got a “our week” chart off amazon with magnetic labels so I could sit with her and plan her week.

I find having clear expectations and routines did help.

As for nappy changes I remember that, she was awful. One of her little friends was even worse. In hindsight I would’ve potty trained earlier. Oh Crap is a great book.

Are you getting a break because when we are frazzled they 100% pick up on it and act worse?

Ravenous I don’t know what my instincts are telling me! One minute I’m thinking no, this is not normal, then the next I’m thinking well he’s just a strong willed clever little imp.

Yes normally I get a break, just unfortunate timing that both dh and my parents are away for Easter and obv no nanny. So have been flying totally solo since Thursday - nothing in the scheme of things!

This sounds a lot like DD and she doesn’t even have a younger sibling as an excuse. She is just very strong willed and always has been.

We started using the naughty step from about 18months (pretty much as soon as she could recognise and understand it). We only do it for the big things like hitting, pushing or anything not safe or really rude. She hasn’t had one in ages now (she’s three and a half) but the threat is always there.

I also do counts of five with clear consequences for her (not always big). Last night it was staying in bed at bedtime. She has decided that she wants to stay up later but is a horrible fiend the next day if she does. I gave her a count of five to get back into bed or I would have to take one of her bedtime toys away. She knows I would (not that I would want to) and obliges by getting back into bed and going to sleep.

It is so hard and it does feel like they are constantly challenging you. Does he do that thing where he seems to essentially make his whole body liquid so you can even pick him up? That is DD’s favourite trick.

I also find that the less I seem to care about something the less she challenges it. We ignore her eating completely at dinner time now. She will eat what she eats and, as long as you don’t ask about it or look at her plate, will eat everything. The same with clothes. I have picked all of her outfits and only have out what she can wear. She then picks (always a dress).

Does he go to nursery?
Does he do any sports type classes like gymnastics or trampoline as my DD is rabid if she doesn’t get completely worn out?
My DD did the car seat thing and the shopping trolley thing it was awful. I swear I have permanently lost brain cells due to it.

BelleSausage we have the same DD
I agree that if they think for one second you care about whatever crazy thing they are doing they do it more

My friends son was just like this - constant tantrums. She had a really tough time and he pushed her to breaking point.

I don't have any advice that you haven't heard already but he settled down as soon as he went to nursery school at 3. He got a glowing report at nursery and, despite kicking and hitting his mother as a toddler, has never hurt another child. He's also a really intelligent little boy and I wonder if he found toddler life frustrating?

Anyway just wanted to share a positive. It will get better. As they get older you will be able to reason more with them. Just stay consistant and strong and get support if you need it.

DS1 was like this so I would have said normal terrible twos but he did later get diagnosed with ADHD, no idea if the stubbornness was extra bad due to that. His ADHD is only mild and he doesn't have serious behaviour problems, a few annoying things but not too bad otherwise. DS2 is still too little to compare so it's hard to say really.

Yeah closed choice great in theory but when you have a toddler who just laughs or shouts NO in response to both then it doesn't work.

I did a lot of simply worded reasoning, made lots of things into a game (racing him was always a winner), let him do as much as I reasonably could, made as little into a battle as possible. Car "wouldn't start" until he was in his seat, but did knee in the chest pin a few times too Nappy changes had to be pinned as well and he didn't potty train until over 3.

Defo How To Talk techniques and Siblings Without Rivalry has some good tips too. E.g. one tip is to say to the baby "Just a second, you need to wait, I'm helping your brother" even though they don't understand, for the benefit of the toddler. I also like Andrea Nair's tips and find her better than most "gentle parenting" guides.

If it is ADHD they wouldn't diagnose yet anyway but no harm in making a diary noting his behaviour and techniques you try etc.

I wouldn’t worry something like ADHD at this point. The behaviour sounds well within the normal range for a small child with a new sibling.

Try to have structure to the day so that you are not fire-fighting all the time. Remember that you are the adult, you call the shots.

And there is nothing wrong with watching TV with him in the afternoon, perhaps, if you’ve been out to the playground or similar in the morning.

This phase will pass, but don’t let it get on top of you!

My Ds tantrums constantly and he has no younger sibling. He’s nearly two. Does a great impression of a rigid board.
I use reins in the push chair as they are more secure than push chair straps. Also good in trolleys Spend a lot of time in the garden to run off energy
I think with my ds it’s frustration mainly as he can’t talk yet and doesn’t understand that we do something nice after being in car seat.
I presume he’ll grow out of it but it’s hard work now

@Siameasy

It is so frustrating, isn’t it. I feel like I am waging some kind of game of wits against my own daughter. Sometimes I feel that she is winning. She’s only 3!

Yes!!!

In terms of additional needs, what you describe sounds perfectly normal for a 2yo. It's exactly where I am with my 4yo who has ASD.

However if you're worried then try using some ASD techniques because ASD techniques will never hurt a neurotypical child whereas the other way round could hurt an ASD child.

Extremely verbal doesn't mean extremely able to communicate. DD can talk for ages about Paw Patrol but she can't say when she needs a wee and she can't identify emotions - which is not usual for 4, but is pretty standard for 2. Things that might help are

• a visual timetable - it takes the anxiety out of what might happen next, for a child who doesn't have much theory of mind. Again, not unusual for 2, but if it helps it helps. We have one a bit like this: www.amazon.co.uk/SEN-Support-Visual-Timetable-School/dp/B014E9NXMY/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

• a time tracker to count down for when we need to change activity, or how long you have left for a screen, or whatever. We have one like this because DD would just turn egg timers back the other way or lie them on their sides www.amazon.co.uk/Learning-Resources-Time-Tracker-Mini/dp/B004DJ373G/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

• using collaboration instead of demands - so instead of DS, put your shoes on, it's DS, I wonder if anybody can find your shoes. Instead of DS, I need to change your nappy, it's DS, I've got a problem - I need someone to hold this [random object] really carefully for me while I change your nappy (followed by effusive gratitude / praise for holding the object).

There are others, have a look at Bo Elven's books on low arousal / low demand parenting. But in the meantime be reassured that my kid didn't do any of this at 2 because she hadn't reached the terrible twos until she was four, so if yours has, the chances are he's on track

bellesausage all sounds v familiar! Yy to the turning to liquid trick. Count to 5 is probably the most effective tool I have, to the extent that once I start counting DS says “don’t count mummy!” and will stop immediately (IF he’s going to stop at all).

samoture agree that extremely verbal doesn’t mean equal communication. Am very conscious that because he is so well spoken sometimes we expect more of him as he presents as a bit older. I always try to debrief with him as per How To Talk (which I have read and loved but feel is a little bit old for him) and he gets stuck a bit.

He’s sitting here now in a pooey nappy which he refuses to change so I’m just ignoring him. Just can’t muster up the physical energy for another wrestling match.

He sounds like he’s ready to expand his boundaries. I’d try nursery two mornings a week and/or swimming lessons. Does he eat and sleep well? Does he take enough exercise? Does he have a little friend and/or an aunt/uncle or granny/grandpa who love him and tell him how pleased they are to see him? Does he know what a great big brother he is?

Oh OP this is so tough! Give it time, he is still very little but do trust your instincts if you think there's something wrong. My DS1 is 2.5 and DS2 is 6 months. DS1 had unbelievable tantrums (easily 3/4 a day)for months now once he realised brother isn't leaving. It's slowly getting better now. He understands his boundaries, I count to 3 and send him to his room for 2 minutes. I had to do this without fail, everytime, even when it wasn't even a battle I wanted to fight or cared particularly about. It's all so relentless and I realise tomorrow might be back to square one, so I enjoy my time with him, cuddle and kiss and praise him a bit more and hope and pray for a good day. As with everything, this too shall pass

No, from my own experience I wouldn’t classify that as normal at all.

OP back again - my 2 year old battler is now closer to 3 and...the tantrumming continues. Have periods where it is better and worse (now) - he has just thrown a screaming fit because he didn’t want to wash his hair, then did, then didn’t want to get out of the bath. Full on insane screaming. I have started to just ignore him until he calms down which only results in him coming up to me and screaming IM CALM MAMA repeatedly in my face. Amusing and exasperating at the same time.

He’s started nursery just in the mornings and has a good time there although he finds it hard to separate from me in if I do drop off (is fine with nanny or dad). We potty trained him over the summer and he’s dry now during the day (haven’t tried night time yet) and the dummy fairy has come too which seemed to really set him back, although he was the one who wanted to do it.

Am really wondering if I need to have him seen by someone as he just seems so emotionally fragile. But who? When do you decide enough is enough?

It sounds really tough! I know that two and three-year-olds do tantrum a lot, but you’re having a particularly hard time... My dd for example tantrumed far more than my ds ever did. It was exhausting. He sounds like a very intense, very strong-willed child.
Do you still see the HV? It’s frustrating that she only ever sees him when he’s behaving like a star, could you do something like take notes one day of what a typical day is like (including each tantrum and each battle) and then share it with her so she can see what it’s like?
I don’t have any advice but one thing I’ve found very helpful is “hand in hand parenting”. They do a free podcast. Maybe look out for books too - I found “the highly sensitive child” really helpful as my dd reacted so strongly to everything and had meltdowns etc, anyway this book described her perfectly and helped me understand her more. I also really like “calmer happier easier parenting”.

...but I would definitely approach the HV and/or GP and share your concerns. It sounds more intense than “normal” with the screaming, the ongoing separation anxiety, but I could be wrong. But definitely worth sharing your concerns with them.

2 years old.

He is still a baby.

Are you maybe expecting to much from him?
You say, "Battle to wash himself"

His so so little still

Just saw that was April..... Ignore

I think like many things it could be something more, but equally it might not. There's no harm in seeking help / advice from GP, health visitor, or through nursery. If it's nothing then no harm done. However, if there's something more going on then getting help early is always a positive.

I feel for you OP. I’ve been there and it’s exhausting, demoralising, upsetting - you name it. Both of my children have been like this to a greater or lesser extent. I hear stories of sunny, biddable children and seethe with jealousy

FWIW my children are now 8 and 4. One is on the path to an ASD diagnosis and I have concerns about the other. That’s not to say I think your son is autistic, but in my experience “difficult” toddlers can grow up to be non-neurotypical children. He may also grow out of it and one day you’ll look back and laugh.

Personally speaking, it’s actually a relief to know that the hell I went through when my children were small did have an explanation, it was outside the norm, and it wasn’t my fault.