Is dh bu to be worried for my ds safety around this child?

[MerryMarigold]

Ds2 is 10 in y5 and family friend's ds (Frank) is 12 in y7. Frank is very strong and (imo, but not diagnosed) shows adhd symptoms, very high energy and impulsive. My dses (older ds is y8) don't really like him because he often hurts them. He's stronger than he takes and doesn't have boundaries. I try to encourage friendship with him as mum is a good friend, supported me at times and Frank doesn't have many friends/ has been bullied quite a bit in school. Ds1 is year above in same school, we see then a lot in activities we have in common etc. etc.

Yesterday on a walk Frank was pushing Ds1 on a swing in forest. Ds1 wanted him to stop as was hurting his balls (rope swing). Frank did not stop. Mum intervened. By about 5th time of Mum asking he stopped when Ds1 was being really quite upset. Next, ds2 climbing fallen tree. He's a bit scared of heights but he did not want to show that so went ahead. Frank pushed him when he was in difficult position and ds2 nearly fell off. He was petrified. Mum told him off (fairly mildly by my standards). I was fuming. Towards end of walk, Ds1 ahead and dd, ds2 and Frank behind. They were climbing round a small bridge over a steam about 2.5m high so not tall and wide ledge about a foot wide so easy to climb round. Frank decided to push ds2 off the bridge. Ds2 clung to his leg and Frank laughed and said 'You look like you're humping me. Humper, humper... ' Ds2 said, 'You hump Jenny' (another mutual friend in y7). Frank kneed ds2 in stomach. He didn't fall in but was winded and crying. Frank told his mum ds2 said he f*cks Jenny. Dd was there and said he didn't say that, he used hump and ds2 says the same (I've spoken to them separately, exactly same story) but not sure mum heard that bit. She made Frank apologise to ds2 later when we got home 'for what happened earlier' . I did not make ds2 apologise for the humping comment as I was still too furious at Frank. If either of my dses treated another child, or each other, that way they'd be in really serious trouble. She seemed quite calm, but if course I dunt know if he's had any further sanctions.

Mum wants to talk to me about the incident and its probably good because I still feel upset. However, I think she wants to bring up that ds2 didn't apologise for the humping comment. I still don't feel like he should considering the considerable provocation behind it. Dh thinks he should. However, dh also does not want our dses around this child anymore. It's difficult as they see each other a fair bit at activities we have in common as parents so there would need to be active avoidance (don't play with him...) . Dh wants to tell the parents that our children are not safe around their son.

What does MN jury think?

We had a child like this in our lives. At 8yo, he punched my 8yo DSS in the face for no reason. Several witnesses (big family celebration that I was hosting). His mum was one of my best friends, but completely minimised and said it must be them play fighting (my DSS is not perfect but he really does not play fight and as I said, several neutral witnesses).

We don't see him any more, and I don't see my former friend because of her minimising. He had low level bullied my DSS for years and I am kicking myself for letting it go on so long, but to physically attack him was too far.

I have 3 brothers with behavioural difficulties, so I am saying this as the kid who always had to be nice and put up with it because it's not their fault, please don't force your kids to be nice to Frank, it doesn't help anyone. As they get older how far will you let it go? My big brother broke my arm and I have several scars, all from incidents fairly similar to what you are describing, because as the boys got bigger they didn't realise I wasn't as big as them anymore so when they bounced up to me like Tigger and played their silly games I'd get knocked flying. They never meant to hurt me but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt.

Please don't assume its because of ADHD either, he's not diagnosed and even for experts it's sometimes hard to tell what traits are actually traits and what is bad behaviour/poor parenting. The children I work with now are younger so my experience with 10-13 years is purely through my brothers but the fact she had to ask her child 5 times whilst he was hurting yours before he stopped is not safe, it may or may not be ADHD but either way she clearly hasn't worked out an effective method to get him to stop yet and it is not fair for your children to be in that situation.

If he is bullying he needs to know that is what hes doing because he won't be able to see it for himself, it might not be his fault but he needs to see that no one will want to be his friend if he keeps doing it, it is not your kids job to be his friends if they don't want to be.

If your friend doesn't want to get her feelings hurt, she should start parenting properly her own son.

You need to protect your children, not this woman's feelings. And if you teach your children "to be kind" that means that they are put second because you're making them play with someone who hurts them, which is unacceptable. What you are teaching your children is that their own needs and preferences don't count. FFS.

Glad their father is standing up for them.

I never tolerate the voiolence. I always tell him off if his mum isn't there (more forcefully than his mum). It has never been as bad as yesterday. Yes, there's some argy bargy playing football or my boys wind him up to get a reaction (see, they're not being forced to be kind!), but yesterday was much worse.

So your kids tease him? And then he lashes out violently? Or have I got that wrong?

your son has had enough,
hes telling you in his actions, they dont like him and they dont like him being a bully to them, THEY ARE TELLING YOU! dont "teach them to be understanding" with a bully, you protect them,
i know when my very very mild mannered son has had enough of another kid because he will say a few smart ass comments, in a very serious way ( and hes a kid who is very laid back and patient )
they get forced to play nice in school, and sit next to the class bully or the kid who spends his/her day disrupting the class, dont make them do it outside of school without giving them a "out" and they need to know as soon as they let you know ENOUGH that you take them away, and maybe "frank" will learn when he hurts them or is a prick that they leave , and they leave each time!

but yesterday was much worse.

So yesterday needs to be the line in the sand for the sake of your children.

Even if it is just childish squabbling (which it doesn't sound like) the reactions are different, Frank's are more extreme. Your children could have been seriously injured yesterday - that's not the same as a random elbow in the side or tripping each other up. Trying to push another child off a bridge is horrendous!

The kids don't like each other, and the incidents of Frank's behaviour are getting worse so do what you'd do if you weren't friends with the Mum and stop trying to encourage the friendship. It's not healthy for your kids.

I would just see the mum for coffee, and not meet up with the kids. After activities, take them straight home. Tell mum they are not getting along together right now!

I just think you have to pull back OP, use the 'kids aren't getting on' line and adjust your contact with her to exclude activities which throw the DC together. Whatever the causes this dynamic isn't working for you and your DC and that has to be your priority.

It sounds as though the mum is avoiding dealing with the issues and I'm not sure you can do much to help her or Frank until she accepts there is a problem. In the meantime I would just tell her you've had enough of the fighting etc between him and your DC and that you think a break from each other would be best for all the DC. That gives you grounds for 'active avoidance' and means you can ask her to enforce it from her side too. It might feel harsh but it doesn't sound like the current situation is much fun for anyone and it might be the catalyst for mum accepting Frank needs some help.

Please stop putting Frank and your friendship with his mother above your own children. They need to come first, it's that simple.

My BFF and I had boys a year apart and looked forward to them being best pals, just like she and I were. Her son took a jealous dislike to my son and treated him badly. It wasn't physical, just mean words and taunting him with toys, etc put it really upset DS2 and he wanted nothing to do with her son. We tried to muddle along for a bit trying to get them to be friends but in the end I just started either not bringing DS2 to her house or seeing her alone.

Your DH is not being unreasonable to be concerned but neither are you to try and find a more of a solution than avoidance.

For me it would very much depend on the reaction of his Mum when you chat. You need to agree strategies for the children to play together.

Your difficulty though is that it got to the stage where your children don't want to and they should have the right to reasonably pick and choose. They are actually making a good choice even if you don't feel it's kind.

I did have a small sharp in take of breath though when I read that you felt that the young girl could take care of herself. She really shouldn't have to face sexual harassment at any age.

You are the one minimizing Frank's behaviour now. There's nothing stopping you be "kind" and hanging out with Frank and his mum. Your boys clearly hang out with Frank because of you rather than wanting to play with him. Can you not see how unfair it is? How many people with behaviourial issues do you hang around with?

There's a thin line between understanding and being a doormat. I'd expect my kids to be kind to Frank but that wouldn't include playing with him if they didn't want to.

You're not teaching your kids to be understanding. You're teaching them that they should put up with bullying behaviour for the sake of being kind.

You have to think of your children first and foremost. Are they happy about it? sad about it? Scared about it? frightened about it? Their response is going to tell you which way to take this. Sorry but you need to take ‘Frank’ out of your thinking. He’s not your child, nor your responsibility.

I’d cut down visits personally, he can’t be trusted and one day he might go too far. Try and keep your distance or meet friend without children. I’ve has to do this in the past to keep my dds safe, their safety is more important than hurting feelings.

You are not teaching them to be kind. You are teaching them to be doormats to a bully and accept his shitty behaviour.

I think that the reasons why Frank has no friends is self evident. Other children have the measure of him and do not want to associate with him. Why should yours be any different?

You need to meet his mother on her own rather than with the kids in tow, if you want to continue your friendship with her. If she mentions how worried she is about Frank having no friends then you might just be able to sympathise with her and also explain why other children find him difficult to be around. She may not like it at the time, but it seems clear for everyone else to see.

Sorry, but I think your DH is right here. From what you have said here you were very lucky yesterday that nobody was seriously injured by Frank.

You do sound as if you are making them go with you and spend time with this boy. Stop it. You wouldn't willingly go out yourself vto spend an afternoon with someone who kicked you, punched you and tried to push you off a bridge. Surely you wouldn't?? So stop making your kids spend time with this bully.

I’m completely with your DH here. Please put your own children first.

Wise words NWQM. Jenny is definitely not being sexually harassed by Frank. IF she ever were by anyone, they would get very short shrift. Ds2 just said her name as she's one of the only girls they mutually know. No need to worry about her and Frank. She looks about 6 years older and acts about 6 years older too.

Yes, my kids sometimes tease him on purpose. This is not kind and not on and they get told off. They are not afraid of him. Ds2 was yesterday though with the tree and the bridge incident. I know what 'victim' and bullying looks like v well. They don't have that kind of relationship although there are difficulties with unkindness on both sides.

Meeting both parents tomorrow with dh and without kids for 30mins before an activity. Am going to think carefully how to broach it.

@MerryMarigold hopefully you are just getting yourself in a twist here by someone linking how old Jenny looks with the fact that your son decided that an appropriate insult was to accuse Frank of sexualise behaviour.

You said in your first post that you are encouraging the friendship but it all sounds a bit toxic and not bringing out the best in any of the boys.

My kids wouldn't be going anywhere near Frank....ever.

NWWM, Frank 'accused' my son of humping him because ds2 was clinging on to him so he wouldn't fall off the bridge. Ds2 took the word hump and threw it back at him using a girl they both know. It's fairly standard behaviour (so and so is your girlfriend, so and so said hello to you so they want to go out with you). Remember ds2 is 10, so he's pretty immature, but he's also very good at knowing how to push buttons. He was angry at nearly being pushed off bridge and tree and that was the best insult he could think of. It worked. We have talked about it being very inappropriate to bring Jenny into it and how she would hate it.

I would not allow my DC around this child and I would tell his mother exactly that. No friendship is worth putting your child through this. No wonder he doesnt have many friends - not many would tolerate this!

Your children should be kind to those being kind to them. To those who hurt and bully them, you need to teach them to walk away. Other than that one comment from DS2 I don’t see any evidence that your children were being unkind to Frank.
I agree with the others that somehow Frank’s well being trumps your children and I don’t know why. I would have stopped contact years ago.
This is a not v nice boy whose parents/mum doesn’t seem to have much control over him. Whatever amateur diagnosis you might make he has no formal diagnosis so as far as everyone is concerned he’s a NT boy who is really really badly behaved.
Please explain to us again why we need to be kind to Frank?
And when is he not a ‘child’ and your kids are allowed by you to walk away from him? At 14? 15? 18? Because at this rate Frank is only going to get worse.