To be a bit cynical about the girls in STEM push?

[StormBringers]

It feels a bit like the ‘you can have it all!’ That my mum heard, wow you can do work! When the reality meant burnout for many women, still doing the housework and kids in most families/ culturally being expected to on top of ft work. Girls with good grades are being directed to STEM, riding on the guilt of all those tragedies of women who gave up on maths and science despite their capabilities.

I see lots of girls excelling in STEM, but I’m not hearing about the family friendly work environment that awaits them. It still seems to be a male advantage in the work place (well unless you make the perfectly valid choice to focus on career instead of children). Surely if we want women in STEM it’s not about targeting kS2 with clubs, it’s about changing the work place and legislating and supporting women to work and excel in STEM in a way that allows them realistic chances to also chose children?

It feels like we’re currently evangelising STEM to girls, telling them they can do anything and pouring them into a broken receptacle they’ll probably leave. Do we have too few women because they don’t follow the academic paths? Or because the workplace presents barriers. I’m dwelling from watching my eldest flounder post Maths phd ... something that I’ve never seen her do before.

Also, we seem to be forgetting debate, creativity etc in schools and the place for philosophy.

Aibu to be getting sick of it lately?

Hi @MariaNovella. Generally (and I am generalising massively here - it's not true of all men/women) I've found that the male consensus will listen when things like this are explained to them, but they just don't think about the differences between men and women (and the design considerations they present) naturally.

How do we get the male consensus to listen to the female POV? This is not a new problem...

By males not being the 'consensus' exclusively being listened to. By being equals at the table, not 'other'. By being the doers, not just people asking for things to be done.

Have only had the chance to scan the thread.

OP, I think the problems your DD is facing are likely to be because she wants to persue a career in academia, rather than because she's in STEM. Building an academic career in the five or ten years after a PhD is extremely difficult and doesn't easily lend itself to career breaks, part time working or short working days regardless of discipline.

If your DD has a PhD in maths, there would be plenty of options in industry for her (someone upthread mentioned being an actuary, which I used to be - much more flexibility and shorter hours than being a solicitor, say, for a similarly high salary). It would be much easier to build a career and have a young family in industry than academia I'd say (with certain caveats).

As others have said, we have a home problem more than a workplace problem imo. I know very few families where the DH is an equal partner.

Oh and in terms of having it all - two full time working parents and a young family is bloody hard, and not always worth it. Sometimes something just has to give. The problem is that it always seems to be the woman who cuts back. Flexible working and men helping in the home are the only things that will help with that.

maria have you read "invisible women"? I really recommend it if not, it's about how the male concensus is taken as representative in all aspects of our lives. Eye-opening and interesting (and infuriating!) stuff

OP, I think the problems your DD is facing are likely to be because she wants to persue a career in academia, rather than because she's in STEM. Building an academic career in the five or ten years after a PhD is extremely difficult and doesn't easily lend itself to career breaks, part time working or short working days regardless of discipline.

This. I read the OP wondering how on earth her dd could have solved the problem by opting for a PhD in English or Modern Languages or any other traditionally feminine subject.
Unless she has some strange idea that these are "soft" options that can be done with half the effort.

I completely agree MindyStClaire
The irony is that mums who themselves do list of the housework/childcare for no other reason than being female will tell their daughters to aim high, study etc. without realizing that they are penalizing them by teaching them that they should do everything at home as well.

I really don’t understand why the women of today, not the girls we are talking about, don’t lead by example and stop assuming they have to be the good housewife/mum from 50y ago.

For me you’re making the whole push entirely valid! Things won’t change until there are more women in STEM to change them! The harsh truth is we need more scientists and the shortfall is coming from the lack of women getting into STEM.
Companies are doing this out of the good of their hearts, they are supporting girls in Stem because they have a shortage of good staff.

Companies are doing this out of the good of their hearts

I'm sure that was meant to be 'aren't'?

Yes... DD had an internship with a large STEM company last summer, which is very eager to recruit and retain new blood including women engineers, software types etc. Even there, where they were explicitly engaged on the matter there would be blind spots. A funny one was that her boss asked her if her father did anything technical.... She rather enjoyed answering along the lines of, well yes he's a scientist, but let me tell you about what my mother does...

I don't know about being unreasonable.

But the more women pass through the barrier into stem careers, some for passion, others for ambition or necessity, the better the world will be.

You are right that there is some way to go.

I work in STEM and I personally find it very family friendly. I switched from FT to PT after birth of DC1 and was given the ability to work from home if necessary. I no longer work late as have to pick up from childcare and there are no issues with this, I sometimes pick up work in the evening if there's something urgent that genuinely can't wait, but I always leave the office on time. I have been promoted twice since I was pregnant with DC1 (actually both recent promotions were when pregnant) and my last performance review and performance-linked payrise was the highest attainable. Enhanced maternity package is reasonably good and there's nothing to pay back, even if you didn't return after maternity leave.
The current head of my department is a woman (and a mother), and until recently the site director was also female... but she was head hunted to go onto bigger things.

IMO I think it's more about the company than the specific industry/area. Progressive companies with family-focused policies are the way forward, surely? Why is STEM inherently any less so than any other industry? I really don't think it is!

I'm obviously lucky that I work for a progressive company and appreciate there are plenty that are much less so, but I genuinely don't think it's an issue with STEM specifically.

I work in stem and it’s really flexible. I freelance now so can pick my contracts. Pays well too. Current contract is flexible hours and working from home whenever you want.

I work in STEM in a old male dominated industry. It is not flexible or friendly.

In my experience of STEM careers, they’re actually great for women because you have hard skills and usually work in a role with clearly defined tasks so it’s easier to demonstrate your value. In soft skill jobs that are more popular traditionally with girls e.g. communications, it can be more about having the right personality and confidence and that can create work environments that discriminate against women, especially women who need flexible hours for childcare or go on maternity leave etc.

STEM employers aren’t perfect either but if you’re technically good at what you do, you can do very well and earn a good salary.

On top of that, all too often, women end up choosing to do fewer hours because they are paid less than men due to sexist gender pay gaps

Isn't that arse about face?

Surely, one of the reasons that the gender pay gap exists is because women choose to do fewer hours.

If they didn't, they would get paid the same.

Isn't that arse about face?

No. I think that post is referring to the gap between pay for men and women for the same hours, because of the phenomenon (observed across different fields) is that 'mens' jobs tend to be higher status and pay than women's. And also in 'women's' fields, men often get promoted faster (eg male primary teachers getting leadership roles sooner)

So, when a couple start a family, and in today's non-ideal world where they can't both simply drop to 3/4 time to fit with school hours etc - it generally seems sensible for the lower paid person to be the one to cut hours.

Yes, men often get promoted faster.

I work in what is considered to be a male dominated Engineering field. Things that I have learnt;
There is an old boys network/jobs for friends
Some people are excellent Engineers, but poor communicators
I currently work a rolling, 12 hour shift of days & nights, but I have worked other hours in the past
If anyone offers you an opportunity to learn something new, always take it, because this can enable you to move onto a better job, be flexible
I consider myself to be an equal to my male colleagues and always have done
I work with people who are based in several other countries and time zones
If someone new starts learn something from them and teach them something too
Of course females can be Engineers !

I'm going to add that a good sense of humour and a CAN DO attitude also helps !

I think we should all stop telling women what they should and shouldn't do, and just let them get on with things however they choose.

DD wants to be a mathematician or a biologist. This doesn't sound great.

I think we should all stop telling women what they should and shouldn't do, and just let them get on with things however they choose.

This.

I think that it is difficult to know what you want to do for a job when you are 14 & need to choose subjects at school. I was fortunate that I enjoyed school & further education & learning. So I would suggest try to obtain good qualifications. I have worked for employers that have provided some study time, on the job training and free extra qualifications. I also know several people that have changed career after 30+ or 40+, so there is always time to revaluate
If possible do a job that you enjoy !

we need women in STEM because women are amazing at problem solving and looking at issues from several perspectives

This probably isn't going go down well, but I have been teaching engineering design up to masters level for 20 odd years. The male/female ratio is around 80/20. In my experience, women are no more (or less) amazing at problem solving than their male counterparts. Some people are good at it, some aren't. Their sex is irrelevant.

DD wants to be a mathematician or a biologist. This doesn't sound great.

Those are very broad descriptions that could apply to loads of careers which would have varying levels of flexible working etc. Don't discourage her. If she's logical, mathematical and interested in the sciences then of course she should be considering careers in STEM (along with anything else that appeals).