To be a bit cynical about the girls in STEM push?

[StormBringers]

It feels a bit like the ‘you can have it all!’ That my mum heard, wow you can do work! When the reality meant burnout for many women, still doing the housework and kids in most families/ culturally being expected to on top of ft work. Girls with good grades are being directed to STEM, riding on the guilt of all those tragedies of women who gave up on maths and science despite their capabilities.

I see lots of girls excelling in STEM, but I’m not hearing about the family friendly work environment that awaits them. It still seems to be a male advantage in the work place (well unless you make the perfectly valid choice to focus on career instead of children). Surely if we want women in STEM it’s not about targeting kS2 with clubs, it’s about changing the work place and legislating and supporting women to work and excel in STEM in a way that allows them realistic chances to also chose children?

It feels like we’re currently evangelising STEM to girls, telling them they can do anything and pouring them into a broken receptacle they’ll probably leave. Do we have too few women because they don’t follow the academic paths? Or because the workplace presents barriers. I’m dwelling from watching my eldest flounder post Maths phd ... something that I’ve never seen her do before.

Also, we seem to be forgetting debate, creativity etc in schools and the place for philosophy.

Aibu to be getting sick of it lately?

I work in STEM and it's my partner, who does not, does more of the hands on childcare. We have 2 girls to bring up so I am instilling into them from an early age they are good at Maths and so is my partner.

He is doing it because he can see they lead to loads of well paid careers with lots of choices, there as I'm doing it because I've heard so much shit from British female teachers and other British women about women not being good at Maths and science.

The majority of overt negative attitudes I have come across are from other British women. They seem puzzled how you can have an interest in STEM areas and act like you have two heads. When I've worked abroad and work with women from the rest of the world I get none of these negative attitudes.

I can't remember where I read it (but it was probably somewhere peer reviewed and sensible as I was reading it for uni) but anyway,
The more women earn the less time they spend doing the second shift, partly because they can buy in services and partly for self-esteem reasons.
So for that reason, its worth encouraging more girls into traditional high earning careers.

I loved science as a kid, I didn't end up doing it as a career but I'm glad I was always encouraged in it.

Sculpin thank you very much

The problem with the message is that subtext are
(a) it's asking women to change and not asking men to change
(b) it's saying that a traditionally male area is higher value, and the right thing to do is for the a woman to aspire to this thing.

It doesn't mean that it's wrong for women to be encouraged in STEM. But it's interesting to think how things would look if the same effort were made to encourage men to do more emotional labour in the home, to get involved in non-paid caregiving roles, take jobs in primary education etc

As a cultural shift it's probably easier to encourage women into more high paid 'traditionally male' career paths than it is to persuade men into non paid care giving roles.

@stormbringers, I've always worked in STEM and have found employers to be very accommodating when I've requested part-time and flexible working. In fact I've always worked part time, ever since my eldest was born 15 years ago. I've even managed to change employer twice and maintain my 0.5 FTE working pattern. I think that in an environment where there are fewer women, employers are more likely to bend over backwards to keep the women they have. Also, as the skills are in high demand generally, employers need to be more flexible. I'm also a secondary school governor and we really struggle to find good teachers for STEM subjects. If we do find someone and they ask for part time hours we are much more likely to say yes than for subjects where we have multiple good candidates.

The only job I have left because I didn't think it was family friendly enough was my original STEM job as a university researcher, but that was because contracts were temporary rather than permanent - I wanted to buy a house and I was worried about the insecurity. But I think that issue affects men as well as women.

I get a lot of odd comments from women when I reveal I am a scientist. As someone above said 'two headed' is sometimes how I feel. It's odd because other professional women I know (e.g. lawyers, teachers) don't get this reaction.

I see a lot of effort being put into improving flexible working and other family friendly policies at many workplaces, but there is still a lomg way to go and a lot of old men still around with poor opinions of women in STEM. At least academic fellowships now have very clear maternity and flexible working rules, it used to be the case that women would just lose part of their fellowship during mat leave and would get little support upon their return.

I thought that STEM subjects in general pay less than a BA degree. Clearly there are some notable exceptions but overall it's badly paid not to mention lots of sexism?

I thought that STEM subjects in general pay less than a BA degree

Not sure where you got that idea from. The highest paying jobs in most sets of stats are often economics and finance. Many economics degrees are BScs and require top grades in maths (the M of the STEM), and finance recruits many graduates with physics and engineering degrees (because of the high numeracy I suppose). Accountancy... go figure.

"If both partners are equally at work, then they should also take equal responsibility for housework and childcare"

Statistics suggest that this simply doesn't happen. Where women work an equal or greater number of hours than men, they still end up doing more housework.

On top of that, all too often, women end up choosing to do fewer hours because they are paid less than men due to sexist gender pay gaps. Many end up carrying an enormous burden of housework and chores that are inherently shit and grinding work.

(We have a HUGE problem in the home.

www.theguardian.com/inequality/2018/feb/17/dirty-secret-why-housework-gender-gap

Yet instead of demanding that the men who played a part in creating the child play a part in caring for the child, there are demands that government and workplaces prop up an unequal system of childcare. That makes no sense to me.

Many [women] end up carrying an enormous burden of housework and chores that are inherently shit and grinding work.

Women, on average, have less tolerance for living in chaos/filth than men. The “burden” of housework and chores falls to the person whose tolerance for chaos is less great...

Women, on average, have less tolerance for living in chaos/filth than men. The “burden” of housework and chores falls to the person whose tolerance for chaos is less great...

Is there any actual evidence of that, or just your perception? Mine is that many men will put up with more chaos etc if they're the one responsible for dealing with it, but not if they can get someone else to do the dirty work. Men tend not to see housework as their responsibility, even the ones who 'help' with it.

It’s not so much a question of seeing housework as their responsibility as a question of seeing housework as anyone’s responsibility.

*The problem with the message is that subtext are
(a) it's asking women to change and not asking men to change
(b) it's saying that a traditionally male area is higher value, and the right thing to do is for the a woman to aspire to this thing.

It doesn't mean that it's wrong for women to be encouraged in STEM. But it's interesting to think how things would look if the same effort were made to encourage men to do more emotional labour in the home, to get involved in non-paid caregiving roles, take jobs in primary education etc*

I do actually agree with you here, in theory.

But I guess that encouraging the traditionally low paid sex to consider higher paid jobs is a rather more inspiring message than vice versa!

I'm definitely messier than DH and have more tolerance for chaos. Yet somehow I still end up doing more housework!

This is for good reasons (i.e. I work fewer hours than him). But it definitely isn't for the reason you give!

At DS school the big push is for "underprivileged" pupils to choose to go to university. DS is on a 4 day taster at the local university this week. I think it is wrong to be pushing 14 & 15 year olds to a university education because they are classed as underpriviledged, I am hoping that DS chooses to apply for degree apprenticeships instead should he get good enough grades so that he can establish himself in a career at the same time as studying. I honestly think schools are doing this to make the school look good & not to benefit pupils.

Women, on average, have less tolerance for living in chaos/filth than men

Or possibly lots of women have been brought up/conditioned to feel like the tidiness/cleanliness of their home is a reflection on them as a person, in a way lots of men haven’t? Is there any evidence for your statement?

OP, I’m not sure what fields you would like girls to be encouraged towards? Thinking about “traditionally female” roles, nursing is a nightmare for arranging childcare, teaching gets you the school holidays but seems (increasingly) to be incredibly stressful and to require long hours, EYCC or retail can be low paid and inflexible hours. (Hope no one is offended by these examples - I was just trying to think of roles girls might more automatically think of when they’re not being encouraged towards “traditionally male” industries).

I think change has to happen from all angles at once. There’s no sense in saying we’ll get more women into leadership roles in STEM and change the culture there and THEN we’ll encourage girls to go into STEM.

If you want more women I STEM teach boys and men not to be arseholes and how they can have functional relationships at home and work. Girls aren't the problem.

@MunaZaldrizoti

Yet instead of demanding that the men who played a part in creating the child play a part in caring for the child, there are demands that government and workplaces prop up an unequal system of childcare. That makes no sense to me.

It makes some unfortunate sense to me. Making sure that men are expected to priotise work over family has benefits for employers in terms of discretionary effort. Making sure that men feel they have to be the 'breadwinner' encourages the petpetuation of financially unequal partnerships (in terms of earnings) which improves tax receipts (as a couple where only one is earning will pay more tax on the same income as a couple where both are working). These are both big drags on challenging the status quo.

I’m not a great believer in postmodern socialisation theories. People revert to type once they leave punitive socialisation regimes.

You only have to go onto the thread about marrying rich and see that huge amounts of women earned more than their dh when they started out.
All given up because of families.
It’s just a bit depressing that it’s always seen that someone has to give up working and in the main in the women

@LtGreggs technology and healthcare aren't traditionally male areas. The only reason some roles within those industries demand higher remuneration is due to the skills shortages within them and men tend to go for careers with bigger salaries. They have then become male dominated and women get pushed out/discouraged from doing those jobs.

I remember the scandal in the late 80s/early 90s when it was revealed that some medical schools in the UK, including one I lived near, deliberately gave negative points to women and ethnic minorities applicants for their healthcare courses. This is so they could keep the majority of the future workforce male and white. Then my friends' who are doctors uncovered unfairness in their specialist exams. This led to a good friend from abroad who the NHS had spend money training up going off to another Commonwealth country to work.

Anyway as PP poster has noted that there is a big issue that once job roles become female dominated then the pay falls within those industries for those roles. This indicates there is a bigger social problem where paid work women do isn't valued.

I have always said that we need to push that couples have 3 months paid extra parental leave that can only be used by the second parent. In couples where the second parent, who is normally a man, has taken leave as well there tends to be a different dynamic over caring for their children.

I'm an engineer and do a lot of outreach work. I like to speak to girls in schools because for all of the 'women in STEM' push, the number of girls who will come up to me and tell me that they didn't know that they could be engineers is worrying. There are a lot of young girls out there who believe that STEM careers are only accessible to men.

I don't have DC but I work with a lot of men who do. Across the three companies I've worked for, everyone (with or without children) has had the option to work flexible hours, WFH or have part-time arrangements.

@RevealTheLegend hit the nail on the head - we need women in STEM because women are amazing at problem solving and looking at issues from several perspectives. They also gave the example about sanitary bins. Last week, I had a meeting where the team agreed the average shower was about 4 minutes. I mean, maybe...if you're a bloke. But I have to condition my hair and wash my face and I'm going to need a lot more than 4 minutes of hot water.

@endofacentury - take a look at www.smallpeicetrust.org.uk/ - they have STEM days and residential courses which are amazing. But generally, STEM covers a huge range of things and those with STEM qualifications can have hugely varied careers.

endofacentury I meant to mention smallpeice to you (and anyone with DC thinking of STEM futures), and also in the sixth form Headstart courses.

we need women in STEM because women are amazing at problem solving and looking at issues from several perspectives. They also gave the example about sanitary bins. Last week, I had a meeting where the team agreed the average shower was about 4 minutes. I mean, maybe...if you're a bloke. But I have to condition my hair and wash my face and I'm going to need a lot more than 4 minutes of hot water.

How do we get the male consensus to listen to the female POV? This is not a new problem...