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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think there are better things to donate €100m to than rebuilding Notre Dame?

344 replies

Bearbehind · 16/04/2019 09:07

I know no one has to donate anything but 2 French billionaires have reportedly donated €100m and €200m respectively towards rebuilding Notre Dame.

The Catholic Church is not exactly short of money.

It just doesn’t really sit right with me spending all that money on a building when it could be used for so many other things

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 02:37

GunpowderGelatine the point is not to rebuild Grenfell.

The point is to find appropriate housing for those families who are still being moved from temporary post to pillar or housed in spectacularly inappropriate accommodation two years later.

The solution to the rehousing problem should not involve forcing families one way or another to move out of London.

pinkboa · 18/04/2019 03:00

With all the colonial taxes they should be able to afford to rebuild it ... 😐

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 03:19

If you mean the $20bn reserve that African countries using the West African Franc and the Central African Franc (both known as CFA franc) are obliged to keep lodged in France, then Biscuit.

The deposited funds earns a small interest annually.

All participants are free to leave the system. Other countries are free to join - which is why a former Spanish and a former Portuguese colony are members.

These currencies are pegged to the Euro and the French Treasury backs them.

LonelyTiredandLow · 18/04/2019 04:21

I think people are trying to see this event as a visual to the top 1% and the fact the distance between poorest and richest is widening.

What they are not recognising is that UK is spectacularly worse than France in this regard and people in UK keep voting for the people who are perpetuating it.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 18/04/2019 06:39

ND isnt important because it's a religious building. Thats not the sum of it's worth.

It's a state building. It has huge significance and brings in lots of money for normal people, who earn their money from the tourists they rely on it.

It's odd that people cant seem to grasp the importance of it.

bellinisurge · 18/04/2019 07:13

Agree with @Putthatlampshadeonyourhead .
It happens to be a church but carries a national symbolism like the Arc de Triomphe. And it's a state building.
Yes, the church could cough up too. And follow the lead of French businesses who understand its symbolic importance to the country.

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 07:32

I beg to differ wrt its importance as a religious building.

It is a symbol of religion and always has been. It has been a beacon of hope through two world wars and major European wars before then, through revolutions and invasions, that higher values would one day triumph.

It is a temple, first, last and above all, built with the worship of God as its fundamental purpose. Without religion it would not have been built and without (even vestigial) reverence for that religion it would not have survived for 850 years.

This is why the fire can't be allowed to have the final word.

Mominatrix · 18/04/2019 08:23

My own feelings about the responsibility of the church has to do with the responsibility it was negligent of meeting in the past. Although the building is state owned, as are all churches in France, the Catholic Church did have responsibility in the upkeep of ND. Unfortunately, it appears that the state and the church were at odds at who really had the bulk of responsibility in the upkeep and also that monies set aside for the upkeep were held up in the labyrithine French bureaucracy. The church should feel some responsibility and cough up something to help in the rebuilding of the church.

InspectorClouseauMNdivision · 18/04/2019 08:46

These billionaires may also (hopefully) already be donating to human causes so if they choose to also donate to the Notre Dame rebuild then why not.

They are. L'Oréal has large charity foundations and are regularly donating to causes and the family that owns it (donated separately and is still donating elsewhere. Ubisoft donated large sums after disasters. The billionaires who donated all have charity foundations and they aim at art so obviously they will donate to Notre Dame. Like Gates. His family apparently donated over 2 billion dollars just in 2017. And they are not the only ones donating in billions.

Again. The fact that it's not all over the news doesn't mean it's not happening😁

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 18/04/2019 08:56

mathanxiety I agree to a point.

Whilst religion is very important to ND and its history. Its not just viewed in terms of religion anymore. It's a state building. Its significance and the benefits its brings to the country and the people arent just religious.

If it hadn't been connected to the catholic church for hundreds of years, people would still be upset, want it restored etc.

Its loved because of many reasons, not just religion. As I said religion isnt the sum of it's worth. It's part of it.

Putthatlampshadeonyourhead · 18/04/2019 09:02

The church should feelsomeresponsibility and cough up something to help in the rebuilding of the church

Who says they arent or wont?

Who says, as has been said before, as a point of pride rich French nationals haven't said to the Vatican 'we would prefer to donate and rebuild this French building'

The fact is, is that we have no idea, what's happening. Who donates to what, what people donate to away from this etc.

We can argue all day long about what people should do or should not do.

The thread is about wether rich people should be donating to restore a building when there are other causes. All the ins and outs of who should be paying for it and why certain people are likely to remain unknown.

pinkboa · 18/04/2019 09:49

@mathanxiety
Thanks for the biscuit Brew....

But we really shouldn't just gloss over it and pretend it's in the interests of those countries

Some consider the euro peg to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it has helped the CFA zone countries to survive recent falls in the price of oil and commodities without currency collapse, inflation spikes and fiscal distress. On the other hand, the strength of the euro may have discouraged exports and encouraged imports, benefiting Eurozone economies – especially France – at the expense of CFA zone countries.
^*
The origin of the CFA franc in colonial relationships means that trade with France, and more recently with the Eurozone, has tended to dominate in the CFA zone. Trade among member states has been hampered by structural issues, including lack of integration between the two versions of the currency.^7 The CFA zone central banks are working toward full integration of payments systems, to facilitate more regional and international trade, and say they expect the two currencies to be interchangeable “soon,” though they have not given a specific date.8^

However, in recent years, trade has diversified, with China and the US becoming increasingly important trade partners.^9 This has strengthened calls for the CFA franc to be separated from France’s control,10 and even for it to be unpegged from the euro.11 In response to this, France is promoting the creation of a pan-African monetary union similar to the EU, with the CFA zone as its core.*

Also take a look at what they did to Haiti...

I'll go enjoy my tea with a biscuit.

VoteJadot · 18/04/2019 17:45

I think what's missing here is a sense of political context. France has been undergoing months of political turmoil with people rebelling in the streets at their lack of spending power, while Macron has been cutting taxes for the rich. It's a massive slap in the face that the same multibillionaires are now magically able to pull hundreds of millions out of their arse for a building, no matter how significant.

twitter.com/AllanBARTE/status/1118485323590324224/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1118485323590324224&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lexpress.fr%2Factualite%2Fmedias%2Fen-images-des-caricatures-critiquent-l-afflux-de-dons-pour-notre-dame_2073691.html

Flobochin · 18/04/2019 18:23

“”I value both our cultural and natural history but it’s essential to remember and value planetary integrity over symbolism.””

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 18:53

But it's not a tax all the same, and referring to it as such is misleading at best.

There are economic positives and negatives to pegging a west African currency to one that is stable.

Not sure there are that many negatives to trade with the Eurozone, especially since this requires a trade agreement with the EU.

Trade involves more than just the exchange of goods. There is investment, an expertise exchange both ways, and as so often stated in the context of Brexit, a European market is something it would be crazy to turn up noses at.

Overall, in a volatile region it is probably best to try to prevent economic chaos that might happen with a very weak local currency from contributing to the already existing problems.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti
France has been proactive in cancelling debt since 1947. Quite correctly, France considers pumping billions into a country beset by a culture of public corruption would not be a good idea. Millions and millions of dollars in aid simply disappeared under the Duvaliers. The Duvalier regime's greed accounted for 40% of Haitian national debt by the time they were overthrown.

The British government after 1833 gave compensation from the Treasury to British slaveholders in the Caribbean once slavery was abolished.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War
As a result, there are now wealthy families all around the UK still indirectly enjoying the proceeds of slavery where it has been passed on to them. Dr Draper said: "There was a feeding frenzy around the compensation." A John Austin, for instance, owned 415 slaves, and got compensation of £20,511, a sum worth nearly £17m today. And there were many who received far more.

Academics from UCL, including Dr Draper, spent three years drawing together 46,000 records of compensation given to British slave-owners into an internet database to be launched for public use on Wednesday. But he emphasised that the claims set to be unveiled were not just from rich families but included many "very ordinary men and women" and covered the entire spectrum of society.

Dr Draper added that the database's findings may have implications for the "reparations debate". Barbados is currently leading the way in calling for reparations from former colonial powers for the injustices suffered by slaves and their families.

Among those revealed to have benefited from slavery are ancestors of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, former minister Douglas Hogg, authors Graham Greene and George Orwell, poet Elizabeth Barrett Browning, and the new chairman of the Arts Council, Peter Bazalgette. Other prominent names which feature in the records include scions of one of the nation's oldest banking families, the Barings, and the second Earl of Harewood, Henry Lascelles, an ancestor of the Queen's cousin. Some families used the money to invest in the railways and other aspects of the industrial revolution; others bought or maintained their country houses, and some used the money for philanthropy. George Orwell's great-grandfather, Charles Blair, received £4,442, equal to £3m today, for the 218 slaves he owned.

The British government paid out £20m to compensate some 3,000 families that owned slaves for the loss of their "property" when slave-ownership was abolished in Britain's colonies in 1833. This figure represented a staggering 40 per cent of the Treasury's annual spending budget and, in today's terms, calculated as wage values, equates to around £16.5bn

I have ancestors on my paternal grandmother's side who laughed all the way to the bank as a result of this.
The concept of compensation for slaveholding plantation owners was not a purely French idea.

Nor was the concept of imposing debt on a newly independent sovereign state in order to compensate private individuals one that caused much distress to British governments.

In this case, land that was originally stolen from Irish landowners from the 1600s on and granted to loyal Britons who rented it out to Irish farmers had to be bought back by individual farmers under the terms of various Land Acts in the last quarter of the 19th century and the first part of the 20th, with repayments squeezed from a poor state under the terms of the Anglo Irish Treaty, which was imposed under threat of renewed scorched earth warfare.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War
The Anglo-Irish Trade War (also called the Economic War) was a retaliatory trade war between the Irish Free State and the United Kingdom from 1932 to 1938.[1] The Irish Government refused to continue reimbursing Britain with land annuities from financial loans granted to Irish tenant farmers to enable them to purchase lands under the Irish Land Acts in the late nineteenth century, a provision which had been part of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty. This resulted in the imposition of unilateral trade restrictions by both countries, causing severe damage to the Irish economy.

And let us not forget the Irish famine of the mid 19th century when food was exported by landowners while peasants starved or emigrated in droves, because the wheels of commerce must grind on, or so went the accepted wisdom of the times.

Obv the idea of sticking to its guns and tightening the noose was not something the British government was averse to.

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 18:57

And wrt money coming from the RC church - Again. The fact that it's not all over the news doesn't mean it's not happening

YY to this, InspectorClouseau (wrt the Church and rebuilding).

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 19:01

However, in recent years, trade has diversified, with China and the US becoming increasingly important trade partners.9 This has strengthened calls for the CFA franc to be separated from France’s control,10 and even for it to be unpegged from the euro.11 In response to this, France is promoting the creation of a pan-African monetary union similar to the EU, with the CFA zone as its core.

Considering the American role in Haiti's impoverishment during the 20th century, this is a fate I would not wish on the countries of west/central Africa.

American efforts to muscle in on trade and American geopolitical ambitions always go hand in hand.

And I am pretty sure Chinese investment comes with strings.

PineapplePower · 18/04/2019 21:05

And I am pretty sure Chinese investment comes with strings.

Obviously. They are there to get rich! It’s not a charity project, nor expressly political (unless they recognise Taiwan....then, it’s all politics)

TooTrueToBeGood · 18/04/2019 21:56

How in the name of fuck did this become about the anglo-irish war, haiti and US-China trade relations? I'm not even going to read back to figure it out in case the madness is contagious.

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