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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why anti Semitic?

64 replies

ThePlaceToVent · 14/04/2019 20:09

I don’t get the under currents of this anti semitism stuff.

Can someone please explain?

OP posts:
Pinkyponkcustard · 14/04/2019 22:03

Thanks for this thread. Mumsnet continues to educate me!

Moralitym1n1 · 14/04/2019 22:11

@Teddybear45

What is it that makes you anti Isreal?

Applesbananaspears · 14/04/2019 22:12

Zionism is the belief in a Jewish homeland on what is now Israel. It doesn’t mean a Jewish homeland to the exclusion of all others. I am a Zionist, I believe firmly in the state of Israel, I do not believe in a state which doesn’t afford equality to all citizens of the country. In my opinion Israel is needed as a safe home for Jews especially after the Second World War and the expulsion of Millions of Jews from the Middle East.

Corbyn himself probably isn’t anti Semitic but he manages to associate himself with some people who are and he did nothing to support people like Luciana Berger and Ruth Smeeth, his own mp’s who have been at the receiving end of vile anti semitism. He has also shared platforms with Hamas

Criticism of the actions current Israeli government is not anti-Semitic. I and many of my friends have serious issues with the current state of Israeli politics. On MN everyone know lots of anti Zionist Jews. IRL virtually every British Jew will support an existence of the state of Israel but views on how it is governed and levels of support for the government and their actions will vary hugely

Etino · 14/04/2019 22:19

@Moralitym1n1 not the point if the thread but I’m pretty certain that MB isn’t polyamorous, and was saying the exact opposite of what you think she did!

Moralitym1n1 · 14/04/2019 22:20

@Etino

Saying the exact opposite re. Breast feeding or polygamy/being polyamorous?

Moralitym1n1 · 14/04/2019 22:33

I can't listen to the video in which I thought she said/came out as polygamous at this moment (no headphones) but I could've picked her up wrong. I've googled and found one article in which she says about 3 different, quite contradictory things re monogamy and polygamy. Eg We're not naturally monogamous, esp men. Then that women and men's sexuality are not the same and cannot be treated the same, then that women choose partners carefully.

Obviously it's not a simple subject but there's a lot going on there that's potentially contradictory. As for women (as a rule) picking partners/offspring father's carefully - that makes me laugh out loud a. because of the relationships board and b. Because see what most women do at ovulation time with some testosterone spiking alcohol in their systems.

Anyway I could have sworn she said she was polygamous now a video but I certainly could have picked her up wrong.

coolwalking · 14/04/2019 23:14

I don't understand those who support the creation of a Palestinian state but also claim to support gay rights.

Israel is the only country in the middle east with gay rights.

Patroclus · 14/04/2019 23:23

There is a lot of genuine anti semitism(mostly right wing). There is also a lot of much needed criticism of Israel whih gets labelled as an semitism.

Patroclus · 14/04/2019 23:25

I dont understand how you think gay rights is an angle to come at justifying wiping somebodies country off the map because you think God said another group of people could live there instead?

Patroclus · 14/04/2019 23:34

Jewish elders and Rabbis had a lot of autonomy at the time in Jerusalem under roman rule. As the bible tells it (and history matches this) The actions of Jesus annoyed the jewish hierachy in jerusalem, who considered his whole 'im the messiah' thing to be blasphemy. The arrest of jesus was carried out by these authorities and passed onto processing by the occupying Romans. Pontius Pilate (who recently it seems to almost have been confirmed existed) and roman authorities wouldnt have given a monkeys about this 'crime', but eventually had Jesus crucified after threats by the rabbis and others of rebellion if he wasnt, rebellion being a constant ballache for them in this area of the empire. I believe some versions tell it differently, but this is the root of the 'Jews killed Jesus' idiocy.

Genevieva · 15/04/2019 00:08

I think that you will find different motivations for antisemitism at different points in history. However, what many of them have in common is a dominant group within society choosing a distinctive minority group as scapegoats.

Ancient Jewish history means that the religion is naturally distinctive. Jews expelled from Israel in ancient times found ways of being able to be practiced at home when there is no opportunity to go out to a place of worship. The last major example of this was in 70AD at the hands of the Romans, so the fact that Jewish minorities have maintained a distinctive identity for almost 2,000 years is quite remarkable.

Jewish communities became involved in money lending for two reasons. One is that they often lived in places which restricted their right to by property or participate in public life, so had restricted career options. The other is that for much of European history Christians have believed that money lending for profit is unChristian (usury). This meant that Jewish communities had to become well educated to survive and Judaism remains the religion with the highest average educational attainment level. It also meant that some Jewish families became very prosperous, which inevitably precipitates jealousy.

My suspicion is that, when it comes to left wing antisemitism, there is a socioeconomic element of wanting to be on the side of the poor and the oppressed and failing to see that this is not compatible with discriminating against minority groups who get typecast as prosperous.

The reality is that any extreme political position (left and right) is, by its nature, exclusive and prone to discrimination against minority groups.

I think we all agree that antisemitism is completely incomprehensible. Most of us naively thought it was something that died out in 1945, so it has been a shock to see it rear its ugly head in the Labour Party in recent years. Hopefully it will not be allowed to fester for long.

noblegiraffe · 15/04/2019 00:51

This bit in the Gospel of Matthew:

19While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

21“Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.

“Barabbas,” they answered.

22“What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

They all answered, “Crucify him!”

23“Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

25All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

It was clearly the Romans who executed Jesus but the authors of the Gospels thought it wiser for the blame to fall elsewhere than rabble-rouse against the Romans which would have been dangerous. The Jews get the blame, and the Catholic Church only officially apologised in 1965 for blaming Jews in general rather than specific Jewish leaders at the time.

Anti-semitism at the moment generally takes a different form - conspiracy theories. There is a widespread and persistent belief that Jews secretly control the world. There was a fake document published over 100 years ago called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion that was supposed to show this.

There are lots of ways of referencing this conspiracy theory without specifically mentioning Jews. Rothschilds is an old favourite, George Soros is another. Recently there have been plenty of accusations of a shadowy ‘Israel Lobby’ funding and manipulating British politics. Same old, same old. Watch out, also, for people using the word ‘Zionist’ for people controlling politics, the media etc.

Bumbalaya · 15/04/2019 02:45

Thanks for starting this thread OP. Ive always wondered but have been scared to ask.

Patroclus · 15/04/2019 04:36

There is a problem in that though NobleGiraffe, in that Israel as country and like many others does lobby to protect its interests. This isnt a secret, but the antisemitism accusation has been used to keep criticism of this at bay. Certain Israeli politicians want judaism and Israel to mean one and the same. For these aggresive vile right wing parties to try and take ownership of Judaism, which traditionally has a social democratic streak and faction, also a group who was attacked as supposedly crypto coommunist in the past by the right, is unacceptable.

Talking abut this incident for instance was quickly shut dwn with the usual stuff

dontquotem3 · 15/04/2019 04:44

YANBU; Arabs are Semites too.

noblegiraffe · 15/04/2019 08:34

Israel as country and like many others does lobby to protect its interests

Of course it does. But when you see on twitter lots of people who criticise Jeremy Corbyn (especially, but not necessarily Jewish people) being accused of being funded by or working for Israel then that’s a bog standard Jewish conspiracy theory hiding under the cloak of ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’.

There’s a certain rabid obsessiveness about it.

Damntheman · 15/04/2019 08:53

Being anti-zionist is not necessarily being anti-semetic and a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

As an aside, I can't stand Mayim Bialik ;)

Damntheman · 15/04/2019 08:55

@cool walking you really cannot reduce the Palestine issue down to gay rights. It's FAR more than just one issue and what Israel is doing to Palestinians cannot be erased by a lack of gay rights in the Palestinian people.

Yes, a lack of gay rights is a problem. But dismissing the entire Palestinian issue because of it is not right at all.

noblegiraffe · 15/04/2019 09:14

Being anti-zionist is not necessarily being anti-semetic and a lot of people don't seem to understand that.

There are anti-zionists who are also anti-Semitic and part of Labour’s problem with dealing with anti-semitism is not recognising this. Generally it seems that if clearly anti-Semitic remarks could in any way be construed simply as criticism of Israel, that’s how they’ve been taken.

InternetArgument · 15/04/2019 09:15

The Talmud makes for interesting reading. Noticing anything unpleasant about any Jews is an anti-Semitic canard. That’s about it.

recrudescence · 15/04/2019 09:18

Corbyn isn’t anti Semitic, OP.

Perhaps. But he certainly has friends who are.

Moralitym1n1 · 15/04/2019 10:05

The Jews get the blame, and the Catholic Church only officially apologised in 1965 for blaming Jews in general rather than specific Jewish leaders at the time.

Yeah whether those leaders did or didn't play an important role in Jesus's arrest and execution/murder: it was a few powerful people, the masses of the time were not there, not involved and had no say. So its ridiculous to blame ordinary people then, even more ridiculous to blame ordinary people thousands of years later.

I understand this is one of Mel Gibson's 'beliefs' as a fundamental Christian (a fundamental Christian who commits adultery, sexually harasses/derides female police and assaults one of the mothers of his children).

Moralitym1n1 · 15/04/2019 10:13

As an aside, I can't stand Mayim Bialik ;)

I could understand that but find her (mostly) likeable.
She's got some range of talents/interests there (successful actress and PhD neuroscientist), I have to admire that.

@etino

I can't find the video on which I honestly thought she said she was polyamorous but have found others where she talks about open relationships (in an apparently very critical way) and then corrects her 'mistakes' and apologies for them had lots of comments saying the video showed lots of ignorance and misconceptions.
But in general yes, her views across her videos seem completely at odds with polygamy so I'm really confounded.

Moralitym1n1 · 15/04/2019 10:15

Apologies for the Mayim Bailik derail op!

Moralitym1n1 · 15/04/2019 10:16

*having had lots of comments