Opinions please: This is more than enough financial support after marriage split, right?

[DM1209]

Wise MN, please help to settle this for me. My sister and ex-bil separated 4 years ago and now divorced.
3 children all under the age of 10 all in FT school. Marriage broke down because ex-bil had an affair, my sister found out and rightly so, she left him.
This is my AIBU:

Ex-bil covers everything financially since the split and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future -

He pays, mortgage on 4 bed property (in joint names) for my sister and their DC.

He pays ALL of the utilities, internet etc.

He pays her car insurance because he says she drives their DC around everywhere but she pays to maintain her car.

He puts a decent sum of money in their joint savings account for the DC every single month.

My sister is retraining and will be back in work by the summer. Her current income is £1300.00 a month and all she has to pay out of that is her contract on her phone, food, clothes and school trips etc for the DC. That's it.

Ex-bil is going to continue with the financial support as it is because naturally they are his children too AND because, now here's the thing......Ex-bil is financially solid where the DC are concerned but only sees them for a few hours once a month.

Doesn't call, interact outside of his chosen timeframe with them (sister has pushed and pushed to get him to increase his contact, he refuses and says this is the only time he is willing to give DC), he has no understanding of their schooling, health issues or anything, my sister does it all and they have never been with their Dad overnight, my sister literally does everything and so has no life.

We are butting heads right now because she wants ex-bil to increase his financial support towards the DC, she is very angry with how little he has to do with their DC and feels as she deals with everything else and she never gets a break or any emotional or mental support from their Dad (youngest DC has just left hospital after battling meningitis, thankfully fully recovered, ex-bil called once to ask how youngest DC was but never visited), he should simply pay more.

My argument is yes he is a wank stain but he pays enough and she should leave the finances as they are and focus on her career which will give her even greater financial independence. It is likely if she asks him he will simply humiliate her and tell her no which will just make her even more angry!

She's older than me so I'm being told I'm too young to understand..... please give me some insight.

Bloody hell, he is really going way above the call of duty

Really ? Not visiting your child in hospital when they are severely ill

I agree that there is a slight risk that if she pushes for more she might end up with less

But given how distraught she is tread carefully and choose
Words carefully

You are a good sister

What a strange thread title about a situation which is, rea!ly, that a man had an affair and now refuses to see his children overnight, or indeed very much at all. A few hours a month is pathetic.

But here you are talking about money.

Is this some sort of bait-and-switch reverse?

As long as he is paying at least 20% of income and he has fully signed the house over to her and has no rights to it then it sounds fair - what is his income and what does he pay?

You have to separate the two issues here - financial and contact.

Yes he should want to see the children more, however you can't make it so don't waste time expecting it. I had the opposite in that son's dad paid the bare minimum and wanted more contact.

Without a doubt he is paying well over the norm.

Ex-bil covers everything financially since the split and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future -

*He pays, mortgage on 4 bed property (in joint names) for my sister and their DC.

He pays ALL of the utilities, internet etc.

He pays her car insurance because he says she drives their DC around everywhere but she pays to maintain her car.

He puts a decent sum of money in their joint savings account for the DC every single month.*

I'd be mortified if I was subsidised so much by an ex-partner no matter if we had children or not. She needs to take responsibility for HER bills and appreciate how lucky she to have an ex-husband paying for her as (should be) their child.

I'd be mortified if I was subsidised so much by an ex-partner no matter if we had children or not.

Really? even if you were heavily and completely subsidising his responsibilities as a father. You'd be mortified that he is paying for his children to have a particular lifestyle even though he actually doesn't care enough about his own children to spend time with them and expects you to do all the actual raising of his children? Would you expect him to be equally mortified that his ex is completely subsdising him as a father? Or is it just money that requires mortification?

Actually how much he earn is a very good question. It seems like a big amount of money he's giving, but at the same time if he's on a really high salary, he might actually pay less than he should.

I'd be mortified if I was subsidised so much by an ex-partner no matter if we had children or not

I'd be mortified if my kid was in hospital with meningitis and my only contact was a phone call.

But the money and seeing the DCs are a separate issue surely?

Him paying even more doesn't change the fact that he doesn't give them much in time. But I suppose she can't force him to see them more than he does at the moment.

They are separate issues, in the financial side he is more likely over paying. She cannot do much with £1300 but if she is getting all that plus her salary, and still not coping, she needs to adapt her expectations. This can only back fire if she asks for more, he can easily switch to minimum payments but he is not doing it, he may care for his children a bit.

It is bad that he is not there as much as she would like but again, it is unrealistic to assume that he should make up for his absences by paying more when she is getting that much. Yes, the lesser the contact the higher the maintenance which means that if he doesn’t see them AT ALL she would get that 20% outright, but if he sees them a few times a month, she will get even less than that.

He is seeing his kids but not as much as she wants, it is unfair but there is NOTHING she can do about it. Contact orders specify when the kids should be made available for contact but do not force the non resident parent to have it.

So I would say she needs to stop flogging a dead horse, accept her new reality and get on with it, as pushing him more or refusing to adapt her expenses to the new budget can only get her less than what she is getting, much less.

I do find it disturbing how many people think that a lifestyle should stay intact after divorce. When the same amount of money that supported a household have to be used to support two, changes have to be made. For what is worth, that man can be living on beans on toast to keep his kids living as if nothing had happened. Or he may be mighty reach, and therefore capable to screw her up royally in court as with her income she cannot pay for a solicitor for long enough to defend herself. He is choosing not to, so there may be more to this guy than what is said here.

Mighty rich, not reach, damn the autocorrect!

Your sister sounds delusional. I would strongly counsel her to calm down.

Mumsnets general view is fathers should be giving the moon on stick to their offspring and we should all “hold men to higher standards ”
the reality is minimum CSA payments will probably cover barely cover utilities and he could force a sale on the house... I’m assuming she couldn’t get or service a mortgage for a 4 bed on 13k

The mortgage on a 4 bed is unlikely to be that small and long term she is gaining equity.
He would likely have to be a verrrrry high earner for mortgage& utility &insurance & cash contribution to be less than 20% of take home

ex-bil to increase his financial support towards the DC, she is very angry with how little he has to do with their DC and feels as she deals with everything else and she never gets a break or any emotional or mental support from their Dad

He is not going to engage if he doesn’t want to and no court will make him.
She needs to just accept that...

The best thing she can do is up her earnings and arrange paid childcare so she gets time off.

... or downsize so she can afford it.

Am I right to assume they have not been apart for long? This level of support is not that uncommon when one of the spouses has just moved out but it tends to diminish drastically as the financial realities hit the paying parent.

Good morning and thank you for all of the varying points of view.

I am not pursuing this topic with my sister at all. My background is Legal and so she is consistently having such conversations with me in terms of her legal position and also asking for my input but then rejecting any ideas that involve the financial arrangement remaining as it is.

A few posters have stated that she is clearly very, very upset at ex-bil's lack of emotional and developmental involvement with the children. She simply cannot get him to comply with being a present father so she is trying to gain some control via finances.
We as a family absolutely support her and the DC but it doesn't take from the fact that their father, other than financial input, has very little do with them. We have also been the voice of reason by reminding her that whatever has happened is now done, he needs to live his own life too which requires him paying for his own accommodation, bills etc and he cannot be expected to not be able to live, especially when he is providing for the DC. Naturally I do not defend his actions but I want to try and retain a balanced view as feeding my sisters anger will not help her or the DC at the moment.

My sister's background is Medical and she is going through a retraining period after maternity leave with the DC and entering general practice again. It is very, very hard for her to see the rejection of her children by their father and while she understands that he is voluntarily (to assuage his guilt) carrying 95% of the financial burden, she feels it is not enough and if he is not going to invest in his children emotionally then he can invest more financially. It's complex and partly I don't think she can quite accept his treatment of the kids, all were planned and all were born a good decade after they were married, bought a house etc so they literally did it by the book so to speak.

I don't think she's too concerned about him withdrawing financial support, once practicing she is more than capable of looking after herself and the DC. I think she just wants to hurt him as much as he is hurting her and because he only responds to financials, I think this is where she is fixated now.

Posters are correct, there are 2 distinct issues here, the money and then his input as their father and my sister won't separate the 2 and so is coming across as she simply wants more money from him. This is not the case.

They have joint assets, property (not just the home her and the DC reside in) which has been agreed will become solely hers when she goes back to work, he will come off the title deeds and she will be sole owner. She is in her late 40's and she put her career on hold for the DC while his went from strength to strength. I know his earning capacity is around the £100,000 mark but am not sure if that is what he is currently earning. Yes £1300.00 can be deemed to not stretch very far with 3 DC's, however, please bear in mind he pays for everything else so my sister is not having to pay any bills of any kind bar her own mobile phone and the maintenance for her car.

It's trying to support her as best we can without WW3 kicking off because she is blinded by her anger and the fallout of that will be more stress for her and a possible reduction in finances for the DC.

I may let her read this thread, it may help for her to read the views of objective parties rather than the subjectives ones of her family members.

They parted ways 4 years ago. Ex-bil has never argued in terms of money with my sister. It has always been about his lack of the time with the DC.

He sees them once a month for a few hours at their home address. That is it. He does not see them on their birthdays, christmas, illnesses, school achievements, personal achievements, nothing. The middle DC's birthday was at the start of this year, the child didn't get a phone call until after 7pm on the day and that was because ex-bil had to be reminded by his own family member to call DC.

Clearly he is paying his way in terms of financial support if not emotional support. Yes she is unreasonable to want more money, but he is unreasonable in not providing the support he should.

I recon on what he is paying it is about 20%. Or more of his income...
Tell her she can't force him to see the children.
Also she has time and money anyway to do things ,while children in school, or to hire someone to sit for her..
She stands a chance of being class as money bring her goal...

She simply cannot get him to comply with being a present father so she is trying to gain some control via finances

Your sister is focussing in the wrong place. She will never be able to make her ex do anything or be anything. She can only control her own actions & behaviours. All the time she spends being angry at him and trying to make him behave differently is wasted time and will only serve to fuel her anger.

Dies she really want to spend her life feeling angry? The only people who will suffer are her and the kids. Not the ex H. It is utterly wasted energy.

I think it's about balance.

If he is currently paying more than the he would be forced to by law then pushing for more could potentially backfire because he may in fact decide to reduce payments to the minimum he has to which would leave her with less money and still not have him seeing his children any more than he does.

It's also complicated by the fact that he had a claim to anything joint so he could potentially empty the joint account which while morally a dick move he is entitled to do as his name is still on the account!

He is an arse though and a shitty shitty parent, no one would disagree with that!

If he is earning £100,000 per year, for 3 children, a quick calculations shows he would be required to pay approximately £1,300 per month based on three children and less than 2 nights per month. Pushing it too far might put her in a worse situation.

She would do well to get the joint assets you mentioned in her name as soon as possible and get some agreement on whether she can remain in the family home.

The big issue is how she feels about the involvement of her ex in the lives of her children. Perhaps mediation might help but both does sound like he had walked away and not looked back. This is extremely hurtful as he has more or less abandoned their children and it also belittles and minimises the sacrifices she has made to have and to raise her children. This is not something that will go away if she manages to get him to agree to pay more. If the father of my children left our child in hospital with a life threatening illness, I would find it very difficult to forgive. I can barely forgive him for leaving me with two children and severe pregnancy related piles to play a game of football and that was 10 years ago!!

Leave the money conversations to one side and encourage her to find a way to come to terms with the fact that she married a shithead and she has no control over his emotions.

Sounds like he is a high earner who would rather throw money at his kids than actually spend time with them. That's really sad but unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. Also it's not really your business so if your sister wants to ask him for more money I would just butt out and let her crack on with it.

What on earth is wrong with him? Do his family not challenge this behaviour? He will have next to know relationship with them as they grow. Adjusting from agreeing to be a mother to three with a dad at home with you, to a single parent with a father who doesn’t care, must be a massive mindfuck for your sister. A change like that is a massive loss.

You can't force him to be a dad. .
Too many of us have tried and failed.

I think she has the right to be angry about the lack of contact with the kids. But she needs to accept that she can't force him to care. She also can't force him to give her more money.

What she can do is make use of babysitters/other childcare to give her a bit of time off

OP is saying SIL earns £1300 herself, that's not his contribution. His contribution sounds like more than her wage is, potentially?