To ask you to write to St Mungos and Women's Aid about this

[ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings]

I understand that a lot of people would rather these discussions stay off the main boards. I also appreciate that publications like the daily mail are easily dismissed as goady and sensationalist. But I would urge everyone to just read this article and decide for yourselves if you think it's acceptable. For those who don't want to click on a daily mail link I'll post the relevant bits here:

" a transgender ex-prisoner and convicted domestic abuser, who made chilling death threats to the mother of his child, has been allowed to come and go from a female-only refuge after he changed his name to Melissa. (...) St Mungo's, which operates 27 sites across London and the South of England, allowed Addis to gain 'almost daily' access to a women-only hostel in East London despite knowing about her criminal past."

"Another charity, Women's Aid, which oversees 300 shelters managed by smaller charities, also said its policy is to allow transgender women to live at the refuges, regardless of whether they have undergone sex-change treatments.(...) In its anonymised report, one shelter manager stated: 'If we have a client who wants to come in that identifies as female, they can come into our refuge or any part of our service.'(...) Another interviewee added: 'We would never ask for evidence of someone's sex or gender because we're open to women on a self-identifying basis.'"

This is not about bigotry or transphobia or any of the other words currently being used to shut this conversation down. If you believe as I do that men who are not legally recognised as transwomen but merely self-identify as such should not have access to these spaces, and that allowing this access is a violation of women's right, please write to St Mungos and Women's Aid and let them know. I've included template letters below for anyone who wants to use them.

My concern wouldn't be that someone was transgender, but that someone previously convicted of dv would be allowed into a shelter.

I'm presuming they themselves are now a victim of DV, or they wouldn't be seeking shelter.

I won't be writing a letter.

A women’s shelter is only for women. And legally only needs to be for women. Black women are women. Gay women are women. But nice attempt at eliding trans women with black women.

So only for white, straight women

Women of colour and lesbians not women?

This person became homeless after serving a prison sentence for beating his partner and threatening to kill their baby. I don't think he is the victim of domestic violence.
I think it's absolutely right that transgender people should have as much protection as any other person. Imo it's wrong that a violent abuser has been placed into a women's refuge

So only for white straight women
Showing your racism and homoohobia there, skyzalimit

I'm presuming they themselves are now a victim of DV, or they wouldn't be seeking shelter
Are you really this naive?

Skyz I wasn't sure whether or not to reply in case you are trolling

white and straight?! No, you don't have to be either of those.

You often see news stories like this defended by people saying transwoman should be allowed in hospital wards/ refuges on a case by case basis, that tw are individuals and that hcp are trained to make these judgements.

I don't want to be involved in a test case, I don't want hcp watching and waiting to see if the male who now feels female is begnine, who asks the potential victims if they are willing take part in this social experiment?

74% of violent crime is committed by men, men should be kept of of women's single sex safe spaces. It's not possible to change sex or be born in the wrong body.

Women's refuges should be separate by protected Sex as is allowed under the Equality Act 2010. If a risk assessment was done Skyz then the refuge are incorrect by allowing this person to enter. Gender reassignment is also protected Gender identity is not.
Stonewall are a huge business now and they should be campaigning and funding for a third safe space for transgender people. Women fought long and hard for a safe space. As it is protected then it should stay that way.

So only for white, straight women

For all biological females. Not for any biological males.

I've thought for myself. I profoundly disagree with self-ID allowing a biological male with convictions for domestic violence to access women's refuges. The amazing arrogance and self-regard involved in claiming that anyone who disagrees with you on this has done no independent thinking is just astounding.

I won’t be writing a letter either. I agree that DM is not a reliable source of news, and even if this is giving us factual information, it is a failure of risk assessment and safeguarding that is the issue, not the decision to support transwomen. Refugees have been supporting transwomen for many years before mumsnet turned it into a huge threat to women. Yes there are some cases where men have disingenuously posed as women but this is a tiny minority and organisations need to be set up to identify and bar dangerous individuals, regardless of how they identify.

I'll ask again Skyz, why are trans people not campaigning for their own safe spaces?

So what's the magic number for the tiny minority of cases to become a concern. 10, 20, 30? What number of women must be hurt for something to change. In my view it's 1. If 1 woman has been hurt in order to validate a man's feelings then that is appalling. I am not prepared to sacrifice vulnerable women.

There is no risk assessment on earth that turns a man into a woman.

So would you be fine with a transman in a women's shelter?

I will send off those letters. I don't believe domestic abusers can change, only mask it better. Women's refuges should be for women only. I can't dress up as snoopy and expect to be welcomed into the dog pound.

It's not just about actual danger though is it - it's about the trauma that women in shelters have endured and then the one last place they are supposed to be safe has men in - men who they are not allowed to call men. Men they may even be asked to share a room with and will be told they are bigots if they object.

I have no words for what is happening to the world

So would you be fine with a transman in a women's shelter?

Yes, I would, because transmen are biologically female.

Yes. Dress how you like. Call yourself what you like. Biological females can’t change into males and so don’t take on male patterns of violence.

Thanks @ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings, I have emailed them both

Thanks to everyone who responded. I know this is a controversial issue that stirs up a lot of feelings so I don't usually post about it off FWR, but today's news story really got to me. It's Karen White all over again.

To those who have said that this was a single incident which shouldn't be used to indicate a bigger problem, I hope you're right but I am personally of the opinion that even once is too often. As someone else said, its not just a physical act of abuse that's the problem, its the fear and trauma that that persons presence alone would generate. The feelings and safety of women shouldn't be sacrificed to lobby groups and any policy which wedges open the door for abusers should in my view be scrapped.

I understand that many people who are trans are vulnerable and will need to access services like hostels and shelters at some point in their lives. I think transmen should have full access to women's shelters and hostels. In fact, I actively would not want them anywhere else. I strongly support the creation of a third space which could specifically meet the needs of transwomen and protect their dignity and safety in a way which doesn't compromise the dignity and safety of women.

I'll report back any reply I get from St M/ WA. I would dearly dearly love to be convinced that I'm over reacting and there is no problem here. Truly.

To those who share my feelings on this, please consider donating to the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter which, having declared that it will only allow women to use its services, has had it's yearly grant from the city council terminated and is under pressure to close down:

www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/help/donate/donate

I don’t honestly think this is controversial for most people. It’s been made an untouchable subject thanks to the TRAs efforts but as I said upthread, no one of good faith thinks that male bodied people should be in a women’s refuge. People either don’t know this is happening or are too scared to say WTF.

Thanks for sharing this. There are so many trans people in the media at the moment - why aren’t they campaigning to create refuges for transwomen if there is such a great demand for them?

right "I don’t honestly think this is controversial for most people"

Agree. I think we are still in a space where the majority of people don't know about it. Before I write anywhere I will check stuff, because Daily Fail etc, but from volunteering - and also I have relatives running a women's shelter in another country - I can easily see how this would be happening.

I see Skyz hasn't been back, but in case lurking, worth pointing out that I'm not white, my relatives aren't white and in certain parts of town, most of the women in the shelter are not white. But I'm pretty sure Skyz was just trolling.