To think autistic people don’t understand the impact they have on people

[SpectrumBlues]

Is a pretty appalling statement to make?

(On the guest blog thread about the under-diagnosis of autism in women and girls)

As an autistic person, I find it hurtful and also deeply unfair. But am I completely naive - are we really just viewed as horrible sub-humans? Should I give up trying to argue that we are just people who process the world differently? Is the fact that I have had to suffer a whole load of bullying and pain by NT people because I’m different irrelevant?

I know this is a huge indulgent pity party but I just don’t get why hurtful comments are continually made about autistic people in this website and it is accepted.

I’ll now await deletion.

So what's your answer to whether autistic people should be allowed to breed then snuggly and bloo?

I can't believe that so many people here think that a parent who sounds extremely self aware and communicative about their disability with their children is obviously abusive and damaging them, and that we should all head-tilt with a "how sad for them".

I never claimed to have a solution. I don't need anyone's permission to feel sympathy for these kids.

Not sure why posters have to start swearing when people disagree with them

@NopeNi I’m autistic (and intent on breeding some time, muahaha), and largely agree with you. I imagine it’s a difficult situation but I trust that the lady concerned is doing her absolute best for her family. Of course she, and other autistic people, should be free to procreate. Apologies if things I’ve said prior did not convey this.

I don’t think it’s top trumps at all. It’s us, as autistic people, reading things about us which feel quite dehumanising and voicing our disagreement.
Exactly.
When does anyone ever say that a child is going to benefit from having an autistic parent because they'll grow up with a better understanding of looking out for people's individual needs and not just assuming that one size fits all? Or that they'll grow up being encouraged to explore their individuality and actually it's okay to like something different and you don't have to run with the herd?
Never. That's when. We're portrayed as crap partners and crap parents.

Ive had some pretty dehumanisibg things said to me by autistic people. It cuts both ways.

Yes - I’ve had some pretty dehumanising things said to me by men but I don’t blame men as a class or believe all men to be inherently cruel as a result

Nope Well the other option is that each of us, autistic or otherwise, should, in an ideal world, reflect deeply on our ability/capacity to parent adequately and reasonably successfully.

We should consider our suitability for the job in advance, just like we consider our suitability for any other job in life. We aren't all cut out to be parents, for any number of reasons but some of us really aren't cut out to be parents for very obvious reasons that are there, in plain sight, before we go down that road.

This might be ASD, it might be LDs, it might be any number of mental or physical health conditions or disabilities/personality traits/personal circumstances/other factors.

As with all the above it depends entirely on the severity or nature of those factors that may be a stumbling block to adequate parenting, both practically and emotionally. And adequate is the least we should all be aiming for. And it depends on the support network around us, and how those factors are likely to affect children.

Practical = reasonably easy to deal with when we have the right support in place.

Emotional/mental = much harder to deal with, unless there is very intensive and omnipresent support.

Yet plenty of people parent inadequately in a myriad ways. None of us is perfect, we all try, some of us try harder than others, some have more challenging circumstances, some of us have all the reasons on paper to think we'll succeed and yet we fail, or at least do a less than stellar job anyway.

Like I said, it's complicated and not black or white. But I have a few friends who don't have children out of choice and they each recognise something in themselves that they acknowledge is not conducive with good parenting and a happy outcome for a child, or for themselves. So they don't do it.

That is not to say that ALL autistic people should probably not be parents. Just that SOME should probably not. Especially not as a lone parent or as the principle carer day to day. AND IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT THAT IS ALSO THE CASE FOR SOME NON AUTISTIC PEOPLE.

In an ideal world we'd al have the ability to be self critical and to ask ourselves whether it's a really good idea or not. To be honest with ourselves about whether we have a better than evens chance of not making a hash of it.

I have a 25 yo female relative who I suspect is ever so slightly on the spectrum. I would have absolutely NO hesitation is saying she'd make a great parent. She might struggle a little in certain areas but by and large she'd be absolutely fine.

I know another man of around the same age who is definitely autistic and requires a great deal of support in day to day life although he appears highly intelligent and articulate he cannot cope with many social and everyday situations and has regular meltdowns.

I have absolutely NO hesitation in saying he in my opinion and I suspect probably in the opinion of his parents, his HCPs and everyone else who knows him, that if he were in sole care of a child it would almost certainly be removed from his care and if he ever married someone and had children she'd have more of a job on her hands looking after him than she would in looking after her children.

Of course this self reflection about your suitability as a parent is all 'in an ideal world' stuff. Which makes it pretty pointless to be pressed endlessly by you to have this conversation. Because I am not the arbiter of how others should engage in self reflection before conceiving. No-one is.

assuming you are autistic

My apologies, I wasn't suggesting at all that you were not autistic, or questioning your diagnosis. I meant I was unaware of whether you were autistic or not.

I think I cross posted from when you said you were autistic upthread and didn't see it until afterwards.

When I said 'assuming you are autistic' I just meant I didn't know if you were speaking as someone with autism, or on behalf of your child with autism.

That's all.

Ah fair enough!

To think autistic people don’t understand the impact they have on people
“Autistic people” includes the 25-50% of individuals who have significant learning disabilities and huge difficulty communicating. Talking about the autistic population as though all autistic people have an “Aspie” profile and can do what is suggested is just blinkered and frankly irritating. Suggesting that living with someone who is totally dependent means they will understand the emotional, social and financial impact of their disability is not realistic or particularly empathetic/understanding.

Suggesting that anyone wishes their child hadn’t been born is vile, and even more so when you must know the parents of more severely effected children will be reading this and will have heard it expressed before.

Horrible.

“Autistic people” includes the 25-50% of individuals who have significant learning disabilities and huge difficulty communicating. Talking about the autistic population as though all autistic people have an “Aspie” profile and can do what is suggested is just blinkered and frankly irritating.

Exactly. Which is why I find it highly irritating to be told to answer the question

'Should autistic people be allowed to have children or not? Yes or No?'

And then to be told 'Yes it really is that black or white.'

I have a 25 yo female relative who I suspect is ever so slightly on the spectrum. I would have absolutely NO hesitation is saying she'd make a great parent. She might struggle a little in certain areas but by and large she'd be absolutely fine.

God, with the offensive and stupid things on this thread about autism you could play autism bingo with it. There's no such thing as a person being "ever so slightly on the spectrum." Either a person meets the diagnostic criteria, that is they have problems in all each of the triad of impairments which cause significant problems in day to day life, or they don't.
And that comes across as you saying "oh well my relative who I think is really mildly autistic would be fine to have kids, but not the rest of you not so mildly autistic people."

The irony of this thread is just staggering, you've got NTs complaining about not being lumped all together, because "all NTs are different, whilst they do exactly that for autistic people.
Given my experiences with many NT people I could come to the conclusion that all NT people are disabilist, prejudiced jerks who like to belittle and mock anyone they think is different to them. I don't because I'm quite aware that one (or several) NT people are not representative of all NT people. But when it comes to autistic people apparently it's fine for NT's to ascribe any negative trait an autistic person has to their autism and decide it's an "autism thing."

I knew someone would pick me up on that. I don't know what the 'correct' way to phrase it would be, but let's just say she has definite but subtle autistic traits. You'd have to know her really well to pick up on them. You will know yourself that autism is more difficult to define/recognise/diagnose in women than in men - at least that is always the impression I get reading threads on here.

Let me re-phrase it, then to say 'at the mildest end of the spectrum.' So mild in fact that she probably wouldn't get a diagnosis, or try to seek one. But there are enough signs there that she leans at least, heavily towards the possibility of autism / Aspergers. Her brother even more so.

@JanMeyer I find your post equally obtuse and unthinking. To suggest that I can’t catagorically say my ds shouldn’t have children because you share a diagnosis with him and therefore “know better” is ludicrous. He can’t walk down the street alone and couldn’t care for a child any more than he could care for himself. There are LOTS of autistics with similar challenges who are loved wanted and cared for by NT parents. Yes it impacts my life, how could it not? Ds doesn’t understand that because he, while profoundly empathetic on some levels can’t possibly know as he doesn’t engage with the world on that level.

you've got NTs complaining about not being lumped all together, because "all NTs are different, whilst they do exactly that for autistic people
Spot on

I think it is important to consider children growing up with parents on the spectrum, diagnosed or undiagnosed. Most parents I know who I suspect of being on the spectrum, who I have known from their early teens are extremely empathetic and warm towards towards their children. The issues are usually not around caring but more about depression/anxiety/social anxiety/perfectionism.

I don't think it is political to say that it does affect your children if you suffer from anxiety and depression, cannot attend social occasions, get upset if things are done "wrong", have a fixed idea about how the day should go and then when it doesn't...well you react with anxiety.

Are those things incompatible with being a good parent? My dd sometimes gets upset with me for failing to be more adventurous and be like other mums, for failing to fulfil societal norms, the right car the right handbag. I do feel I let her down sometimes when I cannot drive on the motorway or go to a busy festival. Yes, sometimes I do think my own issues affect her.

But then other times, I think I am more caring to her, more empathetic, more considerate, more aware of what it is like to be a child teenager, more accepting of differences, more accepting of things going wrong than perhaps someone whose life had run to a NT pitch. I think I am a good mother because I have autism, not despite it.

I honestly believe that a lot of anxiety and depression and frustration, all the angry behaviour we associate with very inadequate parents or partners, is not so much to do with autism per se but to do with a "lived experience" where people dont feel valued in their early life and it comes out later when you are a parent and a partner. It is to do with relationships you form early on, and if as an autistic child you have good relationships and feel valued, I think you will have adequate skills to parent AND what is more you will probably have a greater
understanding of how to parent your own "on spectrum" children, if you have them.

I don't think children should have to suffer bad parenting whether it is bipolar bad parenting, manic depression bad parenting, so depressed you cannot get out of bed to tend to your baby, or angry meltdown parenting, or screaming at your children not to make a noise bad parenting, or fixated on your child having x nutritional intake, or x education. All parents need to listen to other parents and gain a balanced view, I think when you are socially isolated you run the risk of having to invent the wheel as a parent, of assuming that the rules of parenting are x and y, without picking up the nuances that make life lovely.

I was talking to a parent (he is married) the other day who hated the fact that his 3 children (8 downwards)came down after he had put them to bed, when he wanted to have supper with his wife after the kids' bedtime and watch telly/have downtime. I suggested, from long experience wtih children ruining "Downtime" that the best solution was to have supper WITH the children and then the whole process was less divisive, and you gained a bit of time on cooking and washing up. His reaction was..""I'm not eating their slop". In his mind supper was fixed as an adult occasion with delicious food and he couldn't alter this fixed opinion. I judged him on this, and I think he [and sadly the children] suffered the consequences. I hope his wife refused to put up with it.

But I can empathise with him, because I know that is the sort of thing I would have got bogged down with, as also on the spectrum. I would have persisted in doing something that didn't work on the basis that that is what the rulebook says - children eat nursery food, grownups eat stuffed aubergines.

But on a good day, "inflexibility" can feel like safety. Knowing where you are with someone, knowing what the routines are, knowing it is going be nursery food, maybe sometimes that is very good parenting.

just some thoughts really. I think we have to keep re-educating ourselves all the time how to help others and be kind to others, and be self compassionate, make our lives easier so we can be happy (because our happiness will have a beneficial effect on others) ,whether we are autistic or not.

Rigid thinking is always a mistake in parenting. How can you be rigid dealing with another living thing?

Aspergers is no longer given as a diagnosis - attempting to categorise autistic people into “high functioning” and “low functioning” is both unhelpful and undesirable. Also, Hans Asperger was somewhat involved in Nazi eugenics.

What is the official definition of high functioning? I read the other day it was merely an IQ thing and anyone considered HF had to have an IQ of above 70 something, which is still below average so does not necessarily denote high levels of intelligence, although clearly some HFA people have very high IQs.

Given that it is such a very broad spectrum from non-verbal people with the mental capacity of a 2 year old to people like (allegedly) Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, I fail to see how it can be 'unhelpful' or 'undesirable' to differentiate.

I think all Germans who were adult during the war were rather forcefully subjected to Nazi ideology. His work and thinking is too important to be dismissed and wasted in that way. It’s perfectly possible to be high functioning AND non-verbal/dependent. Attempting to use your diagnosis to top trump lived experience of others is not desirable either. Have you ever spent even on day with a dependent autistic with limited communication who is not a small child?

HFA = IQ OVER 70
LFA = IQ under 70

Both can be non-verbal.

It was actually Asperger who came up with the “little professor” stereotype to try and save his patients from the “final solution” in the hopes that the Nazis might let them live for their possible usefulness. It didn’t work, but the idea remains.

I think it is ridiculous not to differentiate.

When you don't differentiate between different kinds of autism it is like giving the same pair of glasses to every short sighted person

Ds2 went to a Sixth Form college, and I asked on his behalf what the "autism" support was, if he did essay based A levels there. The assumption was that he wouldn't be able to communicate socially at all with his peers, which was very far from the case. It was all a bit humiliating and even if some of the help might have been useful, he definitely didn't want to go there...He is doing well somewhere else

Because there’s no nuance to the categorisation, and it reinforces the view of autistic people as a manifestation of “symptoms” rather than as individuals. If you asked most non-autistic people to categorise themselves as “high functioning” or “low functioning” individuals, most would probably say that they were somewhere in the middle, surely? Eg they have strengths and weaknesses. Why would the same not be true of most autistic people?

I don’t give myself any functioning label, it makes no sense to me. I’m good at some things, and very bad at other things, and okayish at quite a few things. Overall I’m a pretty middling individual

But I wasn’t talking about LFA or HFA I was talking about levels is support.