To charge them? Like, legally?

[breakthepattern]

I have some tenants who've just moved out.
The house was surface cleaned but not deep cleaned.
At a glance it looked ok, but it took 3 or 4 hours of hard work to get the bathroom in particular up to scratch, (it was hideous in places) and the cupboards, floors, dusting, windows, etc.

If I'd used cleaners I'd have charged them for sure. I did it myself instead.

I warned them before they left that if it wasn't deep cleaned and I had to get it cleaned I'd charge them by withholding some deposit.

AIBU to "charge" them even though I did it myself? Charge the same as my prof cleaners would have charged?

I'm not sure where I stand as it didn't "cost" me as such. It's not my profession.

@jay55 no I've never bothered, it's ok. Not worth it at this point!

You have to use professionals if you want to claim the money.

@Roussette ugh that sounds crappy, sorry you've had such a rubbish time with LLs.
I'm one of the good guys I swear!
We really look after our tenants and I have never before sought any additional costs from anyone, as is very obvious .

We had such a quick turnaround and i only had two days between them moving out and new tenant moving in.
Until then I wasn't sure the clean would be needed, and so didn't feel I could book a cleaner speculatively. Which is why it seemed simpler to do it myself. Does that make sense?

On reflection I could have at least asked if they'd be on standby for me!

Do people on here actually bother reading the OP’s post? You found like effing idiots when you come along with accusations/comments that the OP has answered on page one!

As for the commentor who asked if the landlord had the house deep cleaned between tenants - that’s the tenant’s responsibility. I say that as a tenant

break only charging £45 for what you had to do is a breeze, and the tenants should pay it with no argument.

I know there are good LLs out there, in between the two nightmare ones, DD had a fantastic LL but the awful ones scar you! Once DD deep cleaned the kitchen herself, it was spotless, and within a day LL was contacting her saying that there were crumbs behind the tea and coffee caddy, obviously planted by LL. (They had mice and she was trying to prove it was DDs fault, London and mice go together!) She let herself into the flat continually with no notice to take photos of everything... sock on the lounge floor behind the curtain/photo, crumbs on the floor in the kitchen/photo, DDs unmade bed/photo. I know a LL can't let herself into a flat without notice but she was seriously batshit and wouldn't listen.

Anyway enough of that! I don't doubt you are a great LL break, there's some awful tenants out there too!

Just a head's up OP. When you let next time, take before pics and also pics every time you do an inspection. That way you have a constant record.

I've rented various places (over 20 years ago now though) and not once did we have to pay for a professional clean.
How much does a professional clean cost? I think the tenants should clean as normal then the landlord pay for a deep clean between tenants. Spread the cost out by upping the rent a wee bit.

Tiger me too...and me neither. I've been renting for 23 years and not once has a landlord had to get a pro cleaner in.

Unless we're particularly clean....some people have awful habits and are basically dirty.

I've rented and been a landlord and in every property it's been in the contract for a professional clean including carpet cleaning and ovens. It comes under the part about the property being left in the same state as you found it. So if it's had that done before you move in then you should leave it that way when you move out.

An inventory service is really worth the money. They suggest a cost for things which they feel are not fair wear and tear.

The tenancy agreement I have states the oven must be professionally cleaned and the carpets. If these haven’t been done I can pursue this and deduct from the deposit. TBH, it always has been done. But frequently the carpet cleaner says, sorry the carpets were in such a state I’ve done my best etc, and I have to put new carpets in. One tenant put gaffer tape on the carpet to mark out an indoor football pitch.

The bathroom is disgusting I’m constantly shocked how tenants leave it. They say they don’t know how to clean or they didn’t have the right stuff. So now I leave bathroom cleaner for them. Not that they use it.

It’s part of the system I’m afraid . I’ve had mice in the house, really grim things, and it’s nothing I can claim for . I’ve tried and they are quick to tell me they will take me to court and they know they will win. The tenant has so many rights. The LL has to pay to rectify the problems and start again.

I wonder why we even bother taking a deposit anymore as we can’t deduct anything from it.

The bottom line is evidence OP. You need to be able to make a case to the DPS - a request for deposit to be withheld. You can't actually 'charge' anyone, as you don't hold the deposit. That case needs to be fully evidenced.

Especially, you need good photos from just before they moved in and a signed, dated inventory as part of the tenancy agreement. Then photos and receipts at the end.

Also, if tenants co-operate, the annotated, signed inventory from your 'check out' meeting with the tenant, where you pointed out the problems and they acknowledged them.

n.b. 'man and van tip disposal' is not cheap, similar to the cost of skip hire, because businesses pay fees for waste disposal that individuals don't. But, if you have evidence the tenant left a load of rubbish in the house, you might as well pay and claim, so save yourself the hassle.

Last time I did this, I found a skip company offering a one or two hour 'drop, wait and collect', so the driver got a cup of tea while we filled the skip and, as you don't have to pay for a license to keep the skip on the road, it's cheaper than usual.

The tenant's responsibility is to return the house in the condition it was in when they moved in, subject to fair wear and tear - but not in a better condition. So if you can prove it was clean (and there should be photos either as as part of a condition report signed by the tenant or at least with proof of when they were taken) then you can charge a reasonable amount to bring it back to that standard. No photos, no independent report= no proof and no money.

Be careful just taking items to the dump unless you have a signed release. You are obliged to give them warning, allow them time to come back for them and sell anything of value to offset the cost of removing them. You can then claim the net cost of removal.

A toilet and bath that have never been cleaned for the duration of a tenancy is not wear and tear. Nor is food down cupboard doors and coffee on walls, not unwiped (ever) splashback or internal windows.

Yet in your OP you said it looked "surface clean"?
If it was so disgusting (you said you were retching), how would it have even passed a quick visual?

I mean, if there was shit in the toilet and food waste on the cupboards, how did you NOT see it?

When I and the letting agent carefully point out dirt and things to tenants they fly off the handle. I’m always careful about how I say, the bathroom possibly needs a bit more of a wipe around. When it’s black and covered in crap.

They know what they are doing, but also know the law is in their side. I’ve had the photos, compared to the room we were standing in. The tenant argues the photo is wrong.

It’s part of being a LL. makes me a bit more disappointed each time. Once I had a clean and tidy tenant. One time out of many...

Practically, I would always expect to have to do / pay for an extra clean between tenants. Even if everything is left in a decent state of cleanliness, that's not the same as the 'deep cleaned' state I would want to present for the start of a new tenancy. It depends on your contract but my 'common sense' view is that a landlord's responsibility to provide a 'tenant-ready' house is a bit different to the tenant's responsibility to leave it in a decent, clean state.

Plus there will usually be a few 'wear and tear' issues to rectify. So you always need a few days for turnaround - or to have lined up all the help you need, ready to leap into action.

For all those saying you need a receipt from a professional cleaner...

Do none of you have MS Word installed and a printer?

I haven't read the whole thread, but I would definitely put in the claim.
I was told to be very conservative (by my lettings agent) with claiming from the DPS (accidental landlord here) with a nightmare tenant who did a lot of damage and left the place dirty.
All my claims were upheld....the tenant disputed all of them (despite me being as reasonable as I could be and previously having a good relationship with them).
What's the harm of putting the claim in?
It's doesn't cost you and there's a good chance you will get some (fair) compensation for your time.
Being a landlord is a job, you should get paid/profit just like any other profession.

Following the above, I think it's relevant that the landlord has a contractual relationship with the old tenant and, separately, with the new tenant. The old tenant and new tenant have no contractual relationship with each other. That's part of why expecting the old tenant to leave the place in a suitable state for the new tenant seems naive, as well as optimistic.

There is always going to be an inter-tenancy role for the landlord, because all responsibility towards the new tenant is theirs.

Much like holiday cottages really.

You say you had a quick turnaround and so hadn't known how much cleaning would be needed...so didn't book a cleaner "speculatively"

But...surely you had an end of tenancy inspection?

If not then you should have.

A toilet and bath that have never been cleaned for the duration of a tenancy is not wear and tear. Nor is food down cupboard doors and coffee on walls, not unwiped (ever) splashback or internal windows.

The thing is, this is different, IMO, from what you said in your OP - where you said it had been surface cleaned. Maybe the issue is down to semantics. That isn't^ what I call 'cleaned'.

I do agree, I've only been involved in house letting, from the pov of my student ds getting ripped off twice by unscrupulous landlords (and I'd add letting agencies on to that). I suspect most landlords are fine. I suspect most tenants are fine, but lets be honest, you only hear about the ones (on either side) that are not.
I stick by my thought though, that I personally think the rent does cover an element of "at the end of this tenancy I'm expecting to have to do a deep clean before I can let it again", built in to what you are charging. In the same way that if I let a holiday cottage, you know the cleaners will be coming in on changeover, so there is not really much point in over doing the cleaning before you leave - you know it is part of the rent.

‘Legally speaking since you don't have photos of what it was like before they moved in, they could challenge it and most likely win.’

Referring to this previous poster, they are exactly right. We left our rental last year as we bought our first place. Our landlord tried to take 80% of our deposit for made up reasons including a stain on the ceiling which he alleged was caused by us spraying coke or deodorant! We would have had to stand on a ladder to do that by the way!

Anyway, we got our deposit back mainly because the DPS adjudication panel said that the check in photos had been taken too long before we moved in (3 weeks) So basically he’d lost before he started. Sorry OP, it’s not looking promising.

When I was renting my landlord’s wife ran a ‘cleaning company’ except she only cleaned his properties at the end of tenancies and she invoiced him and he then had a receipt for the cleaning.

An update for anyone interested-
I left it until today to follow up, I hadn't had a reply to my initial email to tenant asking to charge £45 of cleaning.
This morning I wrote and was very friendly, asking whether they'd accept / agree to the charge, and attached some photos of the dirtiest bits for their ref.
I also said they'd been good tenants and we didn't want to part on a negative, so if not in agreement to please let me know.
I also asked whether if they did, they'd prefer to have it deducted from deposit or pay separately.
They've come back to say not replied as been busy with their onward move, and yes they accept and happy for me to return deposit less the £45.

So assuming DPS system will allow that as long as tenant accepts the claim, we should be all sorted.

Good resolution and lessons learned for next time!!

Thanks for all the input and advice.

Tenant here...
I was promised by the agent that our current house had been professionally cleaned. Three times.
When we moved in, the front door was STILL broken and I ended up on my hands and knees scrubbing the bathroom floor which was black!
I'm pretty sure they charged the previous tenant for a professional clean but just kept the money. If I was told I had to pay for a cleaner, I would be seriously pissed off and outright refuse because my cleaning ability is pretty damn good!
Anyhow....if they really were that gross, I don't think you would get away with charging as you don't have a receipt. I would definitely be demanding a copy!
I'm sorry you have gone through this. I don't understand tenants who live in filth because it may not be their property, but it is their home. I hope you get better tenants next time.😘

YAbU and pushing your luck.