To charge them? Like, legally?

[breakthepattern]

I have some tenants who've just moved out.
The house was surface cleaned but not deep cleaned.
At a glance it looked ok, but it took 3 or 4 hours of hard work to get the bathroom in particular up to scratch, (it was hideous in places) and the cupboards, floors, dusting, windows, etc.

If I'd used cleaners I'd have charged them for sure. I did it myself instead.

I warned them before they left that if it wasn't deep cleaned and I had to get it cleaned I'd charge them by withholding some deposit.

AIBU to "charge" them even though I did it myself? Charge the same as my prof cleaners would have charged?

I'm not sure where I stand as it didn't "cost" me as such. It's not my profession.

I think the op means before as in before she cleaned. op, do you have pics of before they moved in?

it's that standard they need to replicate.

Morning all
Thanks so much for the replies, I'll try to clear up some things.
I've been a landlord for ten years, and I'm generally pretty well informed I'd hope!
I've had excellent tenants in this time.
In between each tenancy we repair and maintain, replacing items and decorating as needed.

We have cleaned the property in a couple of ways depending on the circumstances at the time.

Sometimes using a professional company we have a long relationship with (but whom I've never had or requested a receipt from) to a very high standard.
Other times I have done it myself, to the same standard.
Usually this has not been a big deal as tenants have left it pretty good. But I like to leave it as if I were moving in myself.

I have never documented either the condition or the cleanliness in photographs or by cleaning receipts previously, aside from a written inventory which notes only whether an item is particularly new or particularly worn if worthy of note.
And I have the general photos we use to advertise.

And I've never needed to, hence this one catching me out.

Our tenancy agreement is pretty standard, and I am familiar with the dps requirements such as the link a PP posted. And as such I think the only issue in question is the absence of a receipt.

I took photos of the dirt - not of the flat before they moved in.

I am visiting to drop off a couple of items tomorrow to the new tenant and can take photos then of the cleanliness in the hotspots.

I have a garage full of stuff to take to the tip - it was closed by the time I finished scrubbing their shit (literally) .

Hope that's everything!

@SnowyAlpsandPeaks I said I "took stuff to take to the dump" - as in I removed it from the property and took it with me. It's in my garage.

@Nowthenforever2019 yes exactly. In the absence of pics before they moved in, I took some when I arrived to clean, and I could now take some after it's been done.

@PBobs I guess this is my getting burned!
They told me they were getting it deep cleaned, but it's not an express clause in my agreement that it must be done professionally.
The trouble is I ran out of time to get a cleaner really, so thought it'd just be easier to do myself.

Wish I hadn't bloody bothered now. What a waste of a hideous day.

Won't be making this mistake again!

Legally speaking since you don't have photos of what it was like before they moved in, they could challenge it and most likely win. You have no proof it was deep cleaned initially so they could claim they did leave it in the same state as it was then they moved there. Have the new tenants already moved in then? If they haven't you could definitely take photos now so then if you have any problems with the new tenants, you've got their pre tenancy photos to contest it. If they have moved in they could say they cleaned it since moving in so actually it's in better condition than you left it - in theory although you'd be unlucky to get two sets of rubbish tenants in a row.

I'm not doubting you, but do you have any proof that the stuff in the garage was left by the previous tenants? I would hope the DPS wouldn't just accept your word, for obvious reasons.

As someone else said I suspect it will be if they argue it and as it’s 45 and they didn’t I would just imagine that will take it and move on

Always always always take pictures of the every bit of the house before the tenant moves in. Things can go horribly wrong and if you don’t have plenty of pictures of the condition of the house and something happens, you don’t have a leg to stand on I’m afraid. Unfortunately marketing photos won’t hold up.

The company I worked for used an app which generated inventory reports and you had to take pictures of everything, even down to how many low level scuffs there were in a particular room. It’s the kind of evidence you need if the deposit ever goes to dispute.

In your case I would wait and see what the ex tenants say about the £45 (which is a reasonable cost) and if they don’t agree to it I would just put it down to experience because I doubt you will get anywhere with the DPS.

I’m afraid you have to suck it up. The perks of being a LL. I’ve had actual damage I can prove. Think doors kicked in, holes in exterior walls, bath which hadn’t been cleaned in 18 months ( as they didn’t know how to). None of it will be worth a case. They will favour the tenant every time. It sucks and it’s disheartening. I let my property in professional clean and working order and it’s returned to me in a shocking state. All inventory checks done and signed. But the tenant will always win. HTH.

@DobbyTheHouseElk how depressing! That sucks.

Yeah it's the principle as much as anything and I can certainly let it go if they contest. I won't even bother getting into it. Grr.

@SaskiaRembrandt good point no I don't.

@PoesyCherish good points. New tenant going in today and I'm going to see her.
I'd have no problem openly discussing with her as she vaguely knows we expected cleaning issues from the previous lot.
And agreeing together for me to photograph the condition today / tomorrow.
She's a sweet girl first time moving out.

Sounds like reasonable wear and tear to me... I think yabu to expect money for cleaning your own property when they didn't leave it in bad condition.

@barrelohflaughs I'll look for an app like that it sounds great.
Thanks for the rest of your post.

@BlackPrism wear and tear is not the same as cleaning.
A toilet and bath that have never been cleaned for the duration of a tenancy is not wear and tear. Nor is food down cupboard doors and coffee on walls, not unwiped (ever) splashback or internal windows.

I don't agree that's wear and tear.

Professional inventories are the way to go, they are independent and have photographic evidence. They do a comparison stating what is unacceptable. IMO worth they money they cost as a landlord.

@Lonecatwithkitten absolutely. The way to go!

I'm honestly not going to do battle on this. I'm just disappointed, tired, and annoyed with myself for not pre booking a professional.

I don't need the money, it's the principle you know?

I can drop it if they push. Just feeling a bit sorry for myself and a bit daft on reflection .

Do you have a business for the properties?
Can you not just invoice yourself for the work? Or would you not be declaring the income from the cleaning?

Unfortunately you get this when some not all tenants vacate the property, I don’t know if its their standards or are just lazy gits when it comes to cleaning, I’ve had some tenants where its been spotless and others where its come back needing new carpets and the oven has never been cleaned after a three year tenancy and we won’t even go into the state of the bathroom.

If they have generally been good tenants I do let it slide, but if I’ve had to replace something that was put in new at the beginning of their tenancy I expect it to be looked after and if not I request a deduction from the deposit I suppose its a bit of a life lesson for them to look after things really as I did when I use to rent.

Everytime my ds has moved out of accomodation at his university they charged for deep cleaning. We made sure he and his mates cleaned it but still they charged for the deep clean. We didn't challenge it so more than likely they won't either. We never asked who cleaned it. It was our money for deposit and we paid the rent. So we were at the loss.
We are landlords ourselves in a different capacity and learn the hard way about filthy tenants. Now we do it all through an agency who have all this covered.

I don't know why you couldn't have inspected and then charged them for a deep clean done by a professional cleaning company.

I've been on the other side (one DC had the unfortunate experience of 2 nightmare LLs and I had to help my DD fight all the way to get back deposits from TDS.) Personally I think you would have been better getting a professional company in to do the cleaning as it just smacks of you making money by doing it yourself. I don't doubt you had a horrific day cleaning up other people's shit, but if you had straightaway confronted them with proof and then said you were getting in professional cleaners for the deep clean which was part of the tenancy, you would not be on such shaky ground, I think.

My opinion is of course influenced by the two nightmare LLs, both of whom were complete nightmares. One tried to keep the full deposit after DD had paid £200 for a deep clean (London prices), she then started ringing and whatsapping DD up to 50 times a day, nearly had to go to the Police! The other nightmare LL is a whole other story that would take a whole thread of its own.

Disclaimer, I know there are good LLs out there, we were just unlucky.

As a landlord myself I would certainly ask, and IME most tenants would accept it. We pay for the first hour of cleaning as standard, and anything extra gets charged out at 12.50 per hour. So I would send an email stating the hours used, etc.
Dear XXX,
Cleaning and maintenance has now been completed at the property. Cleaning took 4 hrs, the first hour has been provided for you, any extra are charged at £12.50 per hour.
I also had to arrange removal of some goods at the property to the tip, this is also charged at £12.50 per hour and took 2 hours
Cleaning 3*£12.50=£37.50
Clearance 2*£12.50= £25
These can be paid separately by yourselves, or I can arrange deductions from your deposit when it is refunded to you. Pictures can be provided if you wish.
Please reply to this email in writing, letting me know how you wish me to deal with this.
Kind regards, landlord.

In my experience, 9 times out of 10 people KNOW that theyve taken the piss with the cleaning, and as it is a reasonable charge they agree to it, the TDS doesn't need to be involved at all.

Is it worth it getting into all this trouble for £45 you have not spent? At the end of the day you do not have photos of how it was right just by the time they moved in.

I am NOT asking if it is fair, but given your chances of winning and what you would get if you do, I would rather chalk it out to experience and keep the new photos to deal with the new tenants if they turned to be as bad.

@NotSureThisIsWhatIWant I'm not getting into any trouble. I've said upthread I won't fight it at all.