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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this goes beyond sibling bickering?

66 replies

HipHipHippoo · 01/04/2019 22:15

My sister has three daughters, aged 12, 7 and 2. The 7 year old has autism and her 12 year old sister is absolutely bullying her, in my opinion. Some incidents I've seen recently:

12 yo gave 7 yo one of her hundreds of teddies in front of her mum so she would be praised for being kind. 7yo was ecstatic and took it everywhere and played with it loads, only for 12 yo to demand it back a few days later and just chuck it into the pile in her room

7 yo said she was desperate for the loo on the way back from the park, 12 yo raced in to get to the toilet first and purposely sat on it for ages so 7 yo was crying and almost wet herself

7 yo loves drawing and spent over an hour on a picture. She went to the toilet and 12 yo decided the picture was in 'her space' at the table and shouted "if you don't come and move it in three seconds I'm going to rip it up" knowing full well she couldn't get there in time and would be hysterical at the thought of her picture being destroyed. I'm pretty sure she would have ripped it up if I hadn't intervened

7 yo carries a collection of belongings in a bag at all times that she likes to check and count as a comfort thing. 12 yo constantly threatens to, or indeed does, take the bag or some of the items from it and hides them causing much distress

12 yo constantly sets up 'competitions' between 7 yo and 2 yo, makes 7 yo think she's going to win and then makes her lose so she's upset

7 yo had a hospital appointment and 12 yo kept asking her why (knowing full well it was autism-related) and when 7 yo said it was just a check up to see how she's doing at school, 12 yo kept saying "it's because you've got AUTISM, AUTISM, AUTISM" repeatedly until 7 yo was crying with her hands clamped over her ears

12 yo will heavy-breathe on or poke 7 yo repeatedly to cause her discomfort and provoke a reaction

I could go on. It's become a lot more noticeable recently as 12 yo has been out with friends more and 7 yo is remarkably happier when she is. I approached the subject with my sister but she thinks it's just how siblings are Hmm She said she agrees 7 yo is much happier when 12 yo isn't there so she struggles to punish her as if she grounds her then she'll just be at home more and horrible to 7 yo even more as she'll blame her.

Tonight they were coming in my car and 12 yo old locked the door so 7 yo was standing in the rain and couldn't get in. I told her in no uncertain terms that I think her behaviour towards her sister is despicable and she looked shocked, but still kept shooting her evil looks all evening.

AIBU to approach the subject again? It's way more than normal sibling stuff right? My heart breaks seeing 7 yo so on edge and tormented.

OP posts:
YourSarcasmIsDripping · 01/04/2019 22:57

Your sister has many avenues to explore. It might be attention,it might be low self esteem, she might be a dick.

What is comes down to is that a 7yo child with autism is being bullied and abused in her own house by a sibling. That needs to stop now.

Itssosunny · 01/04/2019 23:08

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goldpendant · 01/04/2019 23:08

Show your sister this thread. Truly awful and heartbreaking to read. I hope your sister can see this and address 12 yo behaviour.

annikin · 01/04/2019 23:17

Agree with pp. Way beyond normal sibling behaviour, which is usually spontaneous, not planned and thought out. And also with the pp who said the parent/child relationship of the 7yo will permanently be damaged. A grown up child still doesn't forget that the parent didn't protect them.

BloodsportForAll · 01/04/2019 23:17

Please show your sister this thread.

I have a poison-butterfly in my stomach, just from reading your post and updates.

Please push your sister to do something. This is NOT normal sibling stuff. Your 7yo niece is going to need therapy when she's older, and her behaviours will worsen if she is not fully supported but taunted and bullied over them instead.

The 12yo obviously has some major, major issues. And she definitely needs some help. But poor 7yo. I just cannot even.

If nothing else works, could you call the nspcc and tell them what's going on, and that you have tried to intervene but their mum doesn't see the problem? It's either that, or something truly awful will happen, eldest behaviour might escalate and someone will get hurt. Or 7yo might do something really bad to herself because of how she's made to feel.

SkintAsASkintThing · 01/04/2019 23:18

12 year old sounds foul.

Whoever steps in and tears her a new arsehole will be doing her a massive favour. As well as her poor sister and the world in general.

Her parents need to massively step up, yes, siblings can be awful but it isn't meant to be so one sided. And as.adults it's our job to clamp down on cruel behaviour.

Peterpiperpickedwrong · 01/04/2019 23:19

UNTIL you said that the 12 year old gets attention I thought it sounded like she felt lacking in attention and pushed out, then it sounded like normal sibling rivalry. when you said how the 12 year old will heavy breathe -my older sister and younger brother used to sit either side of me and do this precisely because it used to distress me. My DH even says to DC now (& I’m mid 40) ‘hey DC breathe on DM’ lol -so funny! They don’t go through with it BTW DH just thinks it’s funny I find it alarming because it’s something always brought up by family at gatherings.

So, on the one hand
7 yo is much happier when 12 yo isn't there so she struggles to punish her as if she grounds her then she'll just be at home more and horrible to 7 yo even more as she'll blame her.
Easy to blame poor parenting
7 yo is extremely bright and talented and 12 yo never really sticks at anything to become good at it
Has 12 year old actually been assessed? 12 year old may have needs themselves? If not maybe just a brat.
Or it may be just be a hormonal adolescent thing BUT If it has always been this way she may need a referral for assessment of because as PP said it sounds very similar to ADHD.

We have 7 ASD 2 ADHD and some spoilt brats in my family-btw

Original poster
HipHipHippoo · 01/04/2019 23:21

12 yo is very immature and selfish, I can honestly say I've never seen her put anyone before herself. When she was younger, the hoarding toys and not sharing could be explained by age, then by not being used to siblings but now her behaviour is inexcusable and just plain nasty, IMO. Even if she's made to apologise, she says it in a snarky way and only to get herself back in the good books so she can have whatever she wants. She constantly brags to her siblings and gives no shits when she upsets them.

One on one she's lovely, and talks about her sisters a lot. She absolutely understands autism, and uses that understanding to provoke a reaction in her sister. I have the younger two so she can have time alone with her mum but she goes back and brags about it, and refuses to stay anywhere without mum so her siblings can have one on one time.

OP posts:
Original poster
HipHipHippoo · 01/04/2019 23:29

My sister has been concerned about 12 yo's behaviour on and off for years but school say she's kind, considerate and a wonderful friend Hmm I'd say she struggles with friendships once they have any depth - she'll have someone over for a sleepover once but never again. If we're going ice skating/trampolining or something, she'll want to go at the quietest time so we don't have to encounter other people. If it's busy, she stares at people so much she barely takes part.

7 yo doesn't sleep well so my sister asks 12 yo to be quiet when getting ready and leaving for school (7 and 2 yo don't go to bed until 9pm so they can ferry 12 yo from clubs) at 7.15am but she always slams around and wakes them, then complains about them if they're upset Hmm

OP posts:
LightTripper · 01/04/2019 23:46

I agree 7yo needs protecting but 12yo clearly has serious issues too. Sounds like she may have needs herself (ASD or ADHD or both?) though of course impossible to tell from a distance: but could make sense if she is feeling insecure and anxious (with teenage hormones kicking in too) and gets a feeling of control by playing her sister like this.

You say the 12yo refuses to be anywhere without Mum, but what if you took her for a treat somewhere, or you took her to her sports activities sometimes so her younger siblings weren't having to drag around after her? It would give you some one on one time with her (might improve your relationship and help you understand where she is coming from better and what is driving this, and whether you can help her see/understand that it's not OK and she needs to find other ways to make herself feel better), and at the same time would balance things up a bit at home and give 7yo some one-on-one time with Mum while the 2yo naps/tags along?

But I'd be encouraging Mum to look into professional help too...

scatteredglitter · 01/04/2019 23:52

Bullying is repeated and deliberate

It really upset me to read that post. The 12 year old should have more insight andnthe parenrs need to step up and intervene
You sound like you are really involved in their lives so you pointing out the behaviours and tellinfmoff the 12 year old like you did was a good thing too
Lots of positive reinforcement and maybe some support for the 2 year old around what autism means might be helpful too

SadOtter · 01/04/2019 23:59

It might be worth seeing if there is a course or some leaflets you could get for 12 year old.

My brothers are autistic and I really struggled when I was around 11/12 because what I saw was them getting all the attention and special allowances made for them and I was jealous, I got attention but not the same sort. I mean if I kicked up a fuss about my favourite cup I was a brat, and no one ever checked my bed was completely crease free or cared if something got in the way of my routines, obviously now I'm grateful that I didn't need to worry about those things but at the time I was absolutely convinced it was all about my brothers getting their own way because my parents loved them more, because I didn't really understand what autism was. So because I was jealous I used to deliberately mess with their routines, move their things etc out of petty spite. Not something I'm proud of but at the time it made total sense to me. I grew out of it once I started understanding a bit more and after someone pointed out what I was doing was bullying.

Original poster
HipHipHippoo · 02/04/2019 00:02

Nope she absolutely won't be anywhere without mum, besides more recently with friends occasionally. But then she's horrid and overbearing when she returns because the other two have had mum to themselves and she hasn't.

OP posts:
k1233 · 02/04/2019 00:19

Why don't you bluntly call the 12yo on her behaviour. Threatens to rip up 7yos picture - why are you being mean? Locks her out of the car in the rain - why are you being mean? Ask and expect a reply. Put her on the spot until she replies. Make her uncomfortable and make her realise her behaviour is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

Blondebakingmumma · 02/04/2019 00:48

I think some natural consequences are due.
“Your sibling need to sleep in the morning because they were up late last night so you could go to swimming/soccer/dance. If they don’t get their sleep this morning then they will be too tired to take you to your club tonight.”
If she then wakes her siblings, your sister can follow through.

Original poster
HipHipHippoo · 02/04/2019 07:12

I do call her out on it, every single time. She'll say she was just joking then storm off because "She can't even joke around anymore" and other such mumbling to herself.

Blonde she tried that but 12 yo is then more vile because she blames 7 yo for missing her club Sad She never sees that anything is her fault. At the park the other day, she was spinning the 2 yo on the roundabout and asked to do it slowly. She got faster and 2 yo was asking to get off and then fell off before I could catch her. Before I even said anything to 12 yo she was saying it wasn't her fault, nothing to do with her. I said she deliberately ignored me and 2 yo and spun it fast (she wanted 2 yo off so she could go on) so exactly who else's fault was it? She stormed off ranting about how everything is always blamed on her. I've explained time and time again that if she could just apologise and learn from her mistakes, it would be better all round and much more mature but she always tries to draw attention away from whoever she's upset by storming off and expecting me to run after her and console her. My sister does exactly that as she doesn't like confrontation and it isn't doing 12 yo any favours at all.

OP posts:
steppemum · 02/04/2019 08:07

you know, the more you say about the 12 year old, the more it makes me think that she is also on the spectrum, and maybe it has been missed?

Livingoncake · 02/04/2019 09:36

I don’t understand your sister. How can she bear to watch her little girl be treated so cruelly? Does she favour the 12-year-old? Is there a golden child/scapegoat dynamic going on?

PhilomenaButterfly · 02/04/2019 10:08

As someone with autism, I'm horrified at this behaviour. A 12yo should know better.

Does she understand what autism is? My clinical psychologist sat my DC 11 and 7 down and explained what it was. It's helped immensely, I no longer want to shut myself in a room away from them.

HardofCleaning · 02/04/2019 10:17

YANBU. There's a massive power differential here so I agree its absolutely bullying and must be horrible for the 7 year old who won't even feel comfortable in her own home. I would also be worried about why the 10 year old is displaying such worrying vindictiveness towards her sister. It's obviously reflecting deep resentment. I think your sister is burying her said in the sand and needs to deal with it. Firstly make sure the 7 year old is protected from her sister's bullying and secondly to make sure the 12 year old is getting enough attention or understand why the hell she's acting like this.

PhilomenaButterfly · 02/04/2019 10:18

But maybe she doesn't understand how it feels. Does she realise that the reaction from her sister, which is oh so entertaining, is caused by stress? Ask her if she enjoys it when she feels stressed.

MumUnderTheMoon · 02/04/2019 10:28

You need to ask your sister if she would tolerate a stranger treating her 7yo like that. If the answer is no then why would she allow it from the 12 yo. The 12 yo has way too much power at home. Allowing her to control her mum and siblings is completely unacceptable and does her no favours in the long run.

anitagreen · 02/04/2019 10:43

Bless her she reminds me of my little sister, my younger than me but older than my little sister is cruel to her constantly very spiteful for no reason and she's always left out to just do her own thing she's only 5 but she's so kind and loving if she stays the way she is now she would make a lovely young adult, my other sister on the other hand is just mean and twice her age don't think it's normal at allSad.

LuvSmallDogs · 02/04/2019 10:44

That sounds awful.

At the risk of getting roasted alive, I grew up with a younger sib with SEN (not ASD) and it was hard being put last - I did have horrific issues with bullying and MH which were put at the bottom of the pile. When I refused going to school because I got beaten up and harassed constantly, my mum would say “X will never have the opportunities you do, how dare you waste them” and was resentful of any time wasted on therapy or meetings at my school.

I wasn’t nice to my sib because of this, though I didn’t torment her, I just ignored her. Any hitting or bad behaviour directed to the rest of us was ignored too.

What your niece is doing is inexcusable, but it may be that the “attention” she gets is superficial and she feels that her actual problems are being ignored.

Ihatehashtags · 02/04/2019 11:12

The 12 year old sounds really evil. She clearly has major issues herself.