AIBU to think the pro-Brexit rally encapsulated the problems with Brexit

[twofingerstoEverything]

Last night's London rally seemed to me to encapsulate the basic problem with Brexit: lots of different groups from the rational and reasonable to the racist thugs, They can't even agree with each other what Brexit is, what type of Brexit they want, and have no common ground beyond wanting to leave. No wonder we're in a position of stalemate.

Anyway, even if "Remain" is a lost cause, all that means is we start the battle for re-admittance. "Remain" may have lost a battle; the war goes on.

Hey walkingdead, Leave already spent all the cash upfront on its dodgy 'let's all jump off a cliff' campaign. Very successfully too, look what you got for it. With your dodgy dirty money. But your funders won't cough up twice so no wonder you daren't have a second vote. Fingers crossed.

Johnson and Gove are being predicted to be prosecuted for their part in the leave campaign following the Vote Leave’s loss of its appeal. The entire thing is completely discredited.

Excellent. Cant happen soon enough.

Yes it is, because you are trying to paint it along party political lines and ignore that the neolibs in the blue camp are pro remain, hence why they are currently voting against Mays proposition because it's the worst situation possible, they may be following the mandate of the referendum, but to insinuate that the party want brexit is revisionist and highlights the shit show we are in.
With limited exceptions, the Tories that are voting against May's deal are the Brexiteers who want a harder Brexit. Most former-Remainer Tories (as at the time of the referendum) are supporting May's Brexit deal.

I am not saying that the Tories wanted Brexit, because the majority of them didn't. I am saying that the present situation is that most of them are backing the Deal and most of those who aren't backing it are rebelling because they want a harder Brexit.

There are presently enough MPs that would be willing to implement some form of Brexit. It is the divisions amongst them that are preventing that.

Well that makes two of us.

Difference is you own it, the current shit show is the paradox of being anti neolib/big business when GE is looming and yet somehow pro those same big businesses and accepting blindly the GDP warnings from economists and still being anti tory.

This tool on the guardian website is pretty good for illustrating that there is presently a majority that would vote for some kind of Brexit, even if there isn't a majority for any particular type of Brexit.

www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/mar/27/can-you-get-mays-deal-through-meaningful-vote-3

I am not saying that the Tories wanted Brexit, because the majority of them didn't. I am saying that the present situation is that most of them are backing the Deal and most of those who aren't backing it are rebelling because they want a harder Brexit.

Most of them are the same disassater economists that the uneducated frame JRM in, it;s ignoring why a lifelong eurosceptic has been promoted to leader of the opposition is why May offering a voted down cross party.

Its the electorate that is going to have to wake up, not the poltical machine, as i said before the paradox is the dyed in the wool lefties now being pro big business etc that will be called out in future.

This tool on the guardian website is pretty good for illustrating that there is presently a majority that would vote for some kind of Br

Bear in mind this is the same paper that unorincally kicked up a fuss about bug business limiting their tax intake whilst using said loopholes, also calling out unpaid apprenticeship whilst advertising them and now in a situation of being pro EU and pro austerity when it suit as not one of highlighting the mess we are in but to play dumb and pretend it's a black and white scenario

is there something specific you don't agree with about the parliamentary maths in that guardian tool? Or do you just not like the paper?

I am not saying that the Tories wanted Brexit, because the majority of them didn't.
No it was just on their mandate which DC was voted in on!

Yes, apparently if it’s in The Guardian it’s shit but presumably would be gospel if it was in The Fail.

We were only asked if we wanted to leave or remain. No one bothered to make any further plans. So yes, all they have in common is that they want to leave. Not sure what else you'd expect. They are not the problem with Brexit. The problem is that our government has pissed about and made an absolute shambles of every part of this from start to finish. Nobody voted for what is happening right now.

The people they interviewed did them no favors. They all came across a bit thick tbh. Kind of fed into the stereotype that brexiteers are short of common sense.

I'm saying this as someone that was born British but has lived elsewhere in the EU long enough to take nationality.

The country I live in, the UK are a laughing stock.

Yes boxy that Brexit stereotype we all recognise. How is it that it became a recognisable stereotype? By bearing a close resemblance t o reality.

How is it that it became a recognisable stereotype? By bearing a close resemblance t o reality

This is a very slippery slope argument to try and make, I'm sure there is a fair few stereotypes you fit into yourself that you would rather not.

There certainly are lurker, we all fit a fair few dont we?

I voted remain and would love nothing more than to remain

Yay! Let's hear it for Whatshername 👏👏👏 💯🎊👌

The EU's sweetheart ❤️

🤔😏🙄

The country I live in, the UK are a laughing stock

Agreed! The EU country I'm in at the moment (I don't live here permanently) consider the UK to be a laughing stock. Its time to get out of the EU. We are no longer welcome within the EU. Why can't the people of the UK see that? Probably because they are ensconced in their own little bubbles and can't see what's staring them in the face. The countries within the EU are not the best places for British people to be at the moment. I'm in a very hostile environment right now. I have been seconded here for 3 months. I'm looking for a flight home as soon as possible, hopefully by the end of the week.

Ooo this thread's back. I'm still hoping I'll find out (a) how saying that the present situation is that there are a majority of MPs who would vote to pass a version of Brexit can possibly be revisionist, and (b) how I'm trying to paint 'it' along party political lines.

PennyArcade

Where I live is not hostile at all. It's a great place to live, and having had to do a quick trip to the UK a month ago I appreciate it even more. The UK is a laughing stock because they voted leave, without the full facts. The politicians have made a complete balls up of it, and future generations will suffer with lack of FOM, STEM jobs etc. People feel sorry for them, in a pity kind of way.

twofingerstoEverything and LakieLady

Thanks. Personally, I’d much prefer the UK had a voice and a vote in the EU than became America’s poodle.

That's what will be the ultimate humiliation, bending over for Donald Trump and our old colony.

I wonder... generally what class of people lead revolutions?

Ahh. Well, for a start, thanks to my university education I learnt about women's emancipation. And how with the upper class women becoming suffragettes, they put lower class women in a very difficult position. Whilst it's worked magic for us lot born in it's future, at the time the upper class women rallied for equality and the women's vote, it was considered negatively by the working class because of the connotations for it's women.

Not all revolutions are started by one class of people.

Revolutions are often started by the working classes in desperation and then taken over, controlled and watered down by the middle classes.