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AIBU?

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Original poster

To ask if you see a second EU ref as a sleight against democracy?

197 replies

VladmirsPoutine · 20/03/2019 12:21

Is there anyone that thinks that the 2016 outcome should be respected regardless of anything else? If so - how do you square that with the fact that Theresa May has tested her 'exit' deal to Parliament twice and both times been shot down?

How can this be the 'WILL OF THE PEOPLE' given the initial result was 48%/52%.

Just curious where people now stand given we are 9 days away from Brexit. No judgement here just curious how people are interpreting the various outcomes and ongoings...

OP posts:
mothertruck3r · 20/03/2019 16:39

There should be another referendum because democracy isn't static and if "leave" win again, then there should be another referendum after that because democracy still won't be static. Once "Remain" wins, democracy will have done it's wonderful job of providing the correct result, even if it does take 10 referendums to achieve that.

FriendOrFaux · 20/03/2019 16:40

Mothertruck3r
How very true!

OddBoots · 20/03/2019 16:42

In light of all the fuck ups both in relation to the referendum itself and since I think it is a huge slight against democracy NOT to have one.

exculpatrix · 20/03/2019 16:42

I voted out. Out of the Eu, out of the customs union, out of the ECJ out of everything. I didn't ask for a deal. I voted to go.

Why? Please, I want to know how you thought that was a good idea.

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 16:43

absolutely mothertruck3r. every person calling for a second vote is a remainer.

they wont be calling for a second vote if they win the next one 51/49 though.

FleurNancy · 20/03/2019 16:43

I actually do and I'm a staunch Remoaner. I just think that a second referendum would make a mockery of the whole democrat

FleurNancy · 20/03/2019 16:45

Argh, posted too soon. Whole democratic process. In fact I think the UK is facing a deep constitutional crisis as a result of all this, the current system just isn't fit for purpose. I have no idea what any new system should be just that the existing antiquated system is well past it's your use by date.

winobaglady · 20/03/2019 16:47

Given the behaviour we have witnessed from a number of politicians, shouldn't the question be "Who do you trust to take The UK through the next stages, either leave or another vote?"

Poloshot · 20/03/2019 16:47

Yes

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 16:47

exculpatrix - I still think its a good idea because I do not want an ever closer union with the EU. and that is what is on the cards going forward. I want to come out now before we get to that point. I waited a whole lifetime to have a vote on coming out.

I fundamentally think that "government" should be as close to the people being governed as it can be. I would like to see power and budgets devolved from Westminster to the regions and down further.

DrVonPatak · 20/03/2019 16:48

It'd be a restoration of democracy, not the slight of it.

KipperTheFrog · 20/03/2019 16:48

I don't think its undemocratic, as people are allowed to change their minds. I know people who voted remain and now want to leave, and people who voted leave who now want to remain. We can never go back to how things were before the 2016 referendum.
UK politics is broken no matter what happens, as this whole mess has well and truly shown our politicians to be only out for themselves, not acting in the best interests of the country.
If Teresa may can have more than 1 vote on her deal, why cant the public have more than one say?

Bluntness100 · 20/03/2019 16:50

I don't wish one, as I don't think we should have been asked the first time, and don't think thr British public understand the implications enough to make a decision on it.

However on a purely is it democratic, then it's more democratic to have one than not, because things have moved on substantially and now we have more information to hand.

However as said, I think it's a terrible idea, as the British public do not understand it enough to make this critical decision. We should never have been asked in thr first place. So asking again is just compounding the error.

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 16:50

what would be a restoration of democracy is all those politicians who voted for Article 50 keeping to their original decision and taking the country out.

DrVonPatak - if there is another vote and its to come out again, will you respect that? why would you expect a leaver to respect the outcome of the second vote if a remainer wouldn't respect the outcome of the first vote?

Iggly · 20/03/2019 16:51

I voted out. Out of the Eu, out of the customs union, out of the ECJ out of everything. I didn't ask for a deal. I voted to go

We still need a trading relationship with the EU - that’s the basis for a future deal.

Surely people realise that 🤦🏻‍♀️

Al2O3 · 20/03/2019 16:51

Yes.

But leaving without a deal is also anti-democratic. Farage, Boris and Rees-Mogg promised us a deal if we voted to leave. The EU would apparently be bent over backwards they assured us.

What goes around comes around.

A second referendum is the default to no deal.

Iggly · 20/03/2019 16:53

And, the last time I checked, the government have followed democracy.

They’re trying to negotiate the terms of a future relationship with the EU and how we exit the current situation. Democracy has been maintained (sort of, given the dubious Leave campaign).

You cannot just walk away - and if anyone thinks we can - well they need a serious education about how the EU works.

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 16:54

Bluntness100 - so if the great unwashed don't know enough about it are you seriously suggesting that the shower of shit 650 MP's know more than we do?

I have worked on EU matters for over 15 years. I know a lot about it and was only in Brussels discussing policy issues last month. Don't tar all of us with the "you didn't know what you were voting for" brush. because I certainly did thank you.

Weebitawks · 20/03/2019 16:54

Maybe I'd think the vote should be respected more if vote leave wasn't found guilty of electoral fraud.

People had no fucking clue what they voted for, clearly. I'm sure if people knew what a shit show the Tories would make of things, more would of voted remain. We should absolutely have a vote on the final deal with an option to just remain.

exculpatrix · 20/03/2019 16:55

I fundamentally think that "government" should be as close to the people being governed as it can be. I would like to see power and budgets devolved from Westminster to the regions and down further.

An interesting idea, but where do we stop? Do we devolve down to individual city states? Smaller? If so, how do we tackle global scale problems, such as climate change, terrorism, human trafficking, illegal wildlife trading, etc?

There's been a trend over the past few centuries towards increased globalisation, probably driven by greater ease of travel and communication. I'm not going to claim that that's innately better than localism, of course, but I'm interested in how a locally focused society tackles modern global issues.

Weebitawks · 20/03/2019 16:55

mummymeister so you're happy with the way things are going ?

MeredithGrey1 · 20/03/2019 16:55

If we have another vote the figures will be similarly close. so if remain wins this time by a similar margin, whats to stop all the leavers saying in 2 or 3 years time they want another vote. I bet the remainers calling for a second vote now wont agree with that.

But if we remain, its unlikely that in a couple of years time we'll suddenly have a lot more information about what exactly remaining looks like so a third vote wouldn't make sense. Similarly if people vote to take May's deal, then there would be no reasonable argument to vote again on that, because its already negotiated and isn't going to change massively after any vote for it.
Obviously if we remained and then later on there were massive changes to what being in the EU looked like (like being forced to join the Euro for example) then I think it would make sense to revisit it. Its just common sense to reconsider any situation, when that situation changes. It makes no sense to make a decision, and then stick to it regardless.

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 16:56

We still need a trading relationship with the EU - that’s the basis for a future deal

yes we do Iggly. and that is something that we negotiate once we come out. you are right it is a "future deal" not a deal for now. we come out first. we negotiate after. Not just with the EU but with everyone else.

mummymeister · 20/03/2019 17:02

mummymeister so you're happy with the way things are going ?

No I am not. as I have said on this thread and a million others. I don't want a deal - May's deal or anyone elses.

If politicians didn't want Brexit then they should never have voted for Article 50. but they did.

You might not agree with me. that's fine. I don't agree with remain. I have never agreed with remain. I never will.

Meredith - that's just not going to happen and all the remainers know it.

please remainers be realistic. you are the only ones calling for a recount. And you can dress it up in any way you want about ignorant voters, dead voters, democracy or anything else that you want to say but at the end of the day, you have decided not to respect the outcome of a democratic vote because it didn't go the way you wanted it to. Now that is undemocratic. Not respecting the outcome of vote where your side didn't win.

Had remainers won, these threads would be full of brexiteers saying exactly what remoaners are saying now and vice versa.

Motherofcreek · 20/03/2019 17:02

How many votes are we going have as it will be close again? If remain pip the post should we get a leaver supporter to completely fuck the process up? Or should we then ask for a best out of three?

TM is an absolute embarrassment and needs to step down immediately

Absolutely sick to death of it.