AIBU all dogs should be kept on a lead outside of specified dog walking areas

[Scrowy]

YES

I am being unreasonable.

I apologise for the deliberately inflammatory title. But this is about groundnesting birds which are in serious decline.

BUT last year we set up some wildlife cameras close to known nesting points for curlews on our farm. What we saw was the parent birds frequently being disturbed by dogs 'playing'.

Year on year curlew numbers have decreased on our farm, despite no changes in farming methods.

What has increased is dog walkers and dogs off leads. Other predator numbers are largely the same or reduced according to Natural England. We can therefore only conclude that the frequent disturbances from domestic dogs are compromising successful curlew breeding.

If you use farmland to walk your dogs please keep them on a lead during groundnesting season (1st March - 31st July). Every countryside guideline and national park also requests this, but most people ignore it.

I know it's a bit shit you can't let your dogs disappear off and enjoy themselves for a bit, but it's really not good for the environment. Feel free to do as you please during winter.

I am really surprised to hear that curlews are endangered. I feel like I see a lot of them (Yorkshire). Very interesting.

I imagine the curlew population has declined with the rise of foxes.

Considering modern agricultural practices and the use of pesticides, loose dogs are the least of the problems birds have.

Here we go, ffs. ‘Farmers are all bastards so every other bigger can do whatever damage they like in the countryside.’ Amazing argument.

Foxes are the biggest problem for ground nesting birds. I don't expect anyone will listen to me though

Bigger = bugger. Should’ve gone with my first choice of noun...

Floralnomad the law is that on open access land (heath/moorland/fell etc) dogs should be on a lead no more than 2m long during the groundnesting season.

If your dog is 30/50m away from you how are you certain that he isn't disturbing wildlife?

It's not about the dogs being in sight it's about dogs not just being able to run around during groundnesting season fullstop.

I imagine the curlew population has declined with the rise of foxes.

Coupled with building on every available bit of land. An unpleasant in law wanted to build a new housing estate on a parcel of his land, but was refused planning permission because of the Stone Curlews nesting there. He fought it in court and sadly won the right to build.

That's sad spam

I still maintain foxes and other predators are probably 90% to blame.

Pesticides do not stay where they are sprayed! Moorland is not exempt from environmental pollutants because it is adjacent to farmland!

Given the massive destruction caused by intensive modern farming, yes loose dogs cause negliable damage.

I think if people used basic common sense and courtesy it'd go a long way but there seems to be more and more people just arguing the toss and being deliberately awkward.

One or two have taken issue when I've given a friendly heads up and asked them to put their dog on a lead. I'm not one of those arsey sorts that gets all righteous at all - far from it but some have had dogs hurtling around , giving zero shits for their attempts to call back and the owners almost "Oh well what can you do?"

It is tragic how many dogs have ended up shot dead by farmers in recent years near us. The owners say the same thing every time and despite the increased warning signs, notices and news about someone's dog being killed, they keep letting theirs run riot.

Will actually argue the toss all "Well I'd like to see farmer shoot my dog I'll sue him / do this, that and the other thing rather than just keep him on a lead for the very short distance we're on the footpath"

Like it's even worth the risk of finding out for sure who's right.

From the British Ornithology Trust website:

"The results of the study suggest that a number of environmental changes are going in the wrong direction for breeding curlew. Degradation of habitat is a key driver of Curlew decline, which breed at highest densities in areas of semi-natural grassland and moorland. The afforestation of such upland areas has had a pronounced negative impact on their abundance and trend. They also have small and declining populations in areas of extensive arable farming.

The study also found that Curlew numbers were lower in areas with greater crow abundance and with a higher chance of fox occurrence - actual numbers of foxes could not be determined. Curlew nests and chicks are vulnerable to populations of generalist predators, raising the question of how the management of generalist predators might be used as part of wider conservation efforts, the latter being focused on protection of favoured sites and the improvement of breeding habitats"

dogs not mentioned I see

@Fazackerley that might be true overall, but op has specifically said that they set up cameras, so they're talking about evidence of off lead dogs, not just guessing.

Sorry I forgot to add. There were talks and plans to make it an offence not to pick up after dogs on farmland as well as public places but I'm not sure what the upshot is and where things are at there. Three or four calves were stillborn within just a few miles from us which was attributed largely to dog shit from vaccinated and untreated dogs.

Dog warden, farmers and vets were in various discussions and hoping to bring some plans for legislation making it illegal to let a dog foul on farmland too.

I understand that's a tricky one to realistically manage cos one of mine will be off and over in the distance then trip off and squat underneath a bush and can I find it? Can I hell..I'm left playing "hunt the turd" in the roundabout area.

Foxes and badgers and crows are a huge problem for vulnerable ground nesting birds like curlew and lapwing. However, because they too are wildlife, it makes it problematic to mitigate their impact.
Badly behaved dogs and irresponsible owners are a problem that can, in theory, be easily addressed. I don't know why people think that introducing free-roaming predators into a wildlife habitat will not have an impact at certain times of the year, so yes even in woodland where there are birds in the shrubs etc, disturbance by people and dogs causes stress and energy expenditure - even if they don't destroy nests or eggs, the adults could abandon their nesting sites if they feel they are too disturbed.
I bet lots of us have seen the film of the dog harassing the seal pup - dogs on beaches in winter also disturb flocks of waders and seabirds who are barely surviving on minimal energy anyway.
I think our impact as dog walkers can be mitigated by having dogs under close control, having dedicated dog walking areas in woodland, coasts and open countryside, and by people keeping dogs on leads or close. Secure dog exercise fields are increasing too.

Our cameras showed curlews regularly being disturbed by nearby dogs off leads.

Whilst the dogs generally didn't damage the nests (some gave them a good sniff) they did make the parent bird fly away. Leaving the eggs vulnerable from attack from crows and magpies, or from generally not being incubated properly.

I agree natural predation (badgers in particular are terrible for eating eggs) accounts for most losses, but that's the natural environment, we can't do much about that we can by controlling predators numbers but that's a whole other can of worms

What we can do is ask humans to keep their pet dogs on leads to avoid making the problem even worse.

We can ask farmers to cut crops after the nesting season (there are financial rewards for this so many do) we can ask farmers to destock on commonland (again this is widely happening already).

Everyone needs to do their bit, not just say 'oh but the foxes' 'oh but the farmers'.

Yes everyone needs to do their bit including hunting foxes

What is the actual law regarding dogs on leads though? We went to a public country park the other day, and the number of dogs off leads was staggering. My son is terrified of dogs and his joy of being outside and running about is constantly marred by dogs running up to him. It makes no difference to him that the owner (a stranger) says, "Oh he's friendly." All my son sees is an uncontrolled animal charging up to him.

There's no law. You need to be in control of your dog ie it comes back when you call it. A dog bounding around in a park isn't breaking the law.

There is no single law Tinker it depends on where you are, what type of land it is, who owns it and what time of year it is.

If a dog isn't attacking or behaving aggressively to your son then no law is broken.

I always keep my dog on a lead in areas where I am specifically directed to do so. Other than that, I don't.

I didn't think about the ground-nesting bird issue - I am surprised that there aren't signs informing people of this. There are signs warning about lambing in the season.

But I have to say that with all the damage that the human race does to the planet dogs are a drop in the ocean,

I agree with you completly Tinkerbell, I am sick of people saying but he is friendly!

But he probably is friendly! Jumping up is very naughty but wagging over to say hello is what friendly dogs do. It's not life threatening!

Ddog’s main off lead stomping ground is a big patch of grass owned by the parish - no birds would be mad enough to nest there, it’s popular with dogs, outside yoga types and the odd fete.

I do hate dogs with bad recall bounding all over the shop, my parents have real trouble with them getting into their garden and hassling their elderly cats and one of their neighbours has lost chickens. Growing up in a popular dog walking area has soured me on many dog owners.