Is the phrase “woman of Colour” still acceptable?

[Whatjusthappenedthere]

I’m confused, Amber Rudd caused uproar when she used the out dated and now racist term “ coloured” when referring to Diane Abott recently. I grasp why this term is now no longer used BUT yesterday on Woman’s Hour the term “women of colour “ was used in a positive way and this is acceptable.
Any one able to explain ?
I’m genuinely concerned as I brought up in a home where “passive” racism was the norm. The N word was occationally used but not in anger or violence. The local shop was called by the P word. I remember once being asked to see the head master at school in the 1980’s because I had used some racist language and I was honestly dumbfounded as I had no idea what I had said.
I work very intimately with the general public but not in an ethnically diverse area so when I do spend time with someone who is not ( and even here I’m struggling to find the right term) white, hope that’s ok , I’m really nervous of saying the wrong thing.
Can any one explain the right terms to use?
I still struggle to refer to people as Black if required as that was the one word I did here in the 80’s that was often followed by some other derogatory term.
Help. I just want to get it right.

I like the argument about naming yourself. But unless you’ve told everyone that this is your preferred usage then you will have people getting it wrong. My mum wouldn’t know, for example. She wouldn’t say coloured. But she wouldn’t know that woc is now the phrase. She’s not engaged with the debate in that way (retired, disabled so largely housebound, can’t see well enough to read a newspaper really). There are many people who are just not hearing this discussion because it’s not in their world and I dont like the instant putting people in the wrong when most people are of good will and don’t want to offend.

I suppose it depends on how it's used, whether it causes offence or not.

I made the mistake of describing someone as African once. Never-a-fucking-gain.

I had a similar conversation with my DF yesterday. He asked me if he had to describe a person who is not white or black (as in African heritage, and assuming that black is acceptable - we have a relative with African heritage that finds black offensive) how should he describe them?He gave the example of having to describe a person who's heritage is unknown to him, so he can't say a specific ethnicity. A guess based on appearance is obviously unacceptable i.e. assuming a person with Korean ancestry is Chinese.

We live in a very non-diverse area, not using ethnicity to describe someone non white (a term I feel uneasy with, it places white as a base line of normality, and is othering Imo) would be quite odd, and likely seen as almost deliberately obstructive.

I suggested POC, but that's not helpful in a description when trying to identify an individual, he also felt it was othering. We established that whatever term is acceptable to the individual is the only acceptable term, but what you do when you don't know what that term is, I don't know, and I'd really like to!

I use black/ white out of habit and really hope this isnt offensive. Woc seems strange to drop into everyday conversation- sounds very political, but maybe that's just as it's new to me. I work in the nhs and we are encouraged to say multi-heritage rather than mixed race, as we're all one human race etc. Agree with this, but then lots of caucasian people also have mixed cultural heritage. A minefield!!

"I made the mistake of describing someone as African once. Never-a-fucking-gain."

How? Did they think you thought Africans were monoliths?

To me, "people of color" seems to have very much come from the US/tumblr/twitter-verse, and so people over here who are into all that stuff have started appropriating it.

Personally, as a non-white person, I don't like it. It's basically just a re-wording of "coloured", which most people know is offensive. Why does changing the order of the words make it less offensive?

@DingDongDenny my kids godmum also calls herself a brown person. She says it in a funny way too. Its part of how she identifies.

I watched a film yesterday and an actress of colour's lines included her referring to her race as 'coloureds' because of the era the film was set in. And it made me think, I'm sad, angry, bitter at the actions of my caucasian ancesters for what they did to POC, I've been ashamed since I learnt about it years ago and more so since studying this subject at uni. But watching that film, I thought that someone being called 'coloured' should be beautiful. It should be felt to be as beautiful as it could be. There's nothing special about being white. Except some white people's idea that they should be seen as special over POC. I hope this has come out as I intended it to. I'm not very good with my words 🙄

Fluffy did the man you described as 'from Africa' actually ever live there? If you've just assumed that because he's black, he's from Africa, then yes it was racist. Being black doesn't preclude him from being British. Or from Nottingham. A relative 3 generations ago being born in Zimbabwe doesn't make him 'from Africa'

If, however, he describes himself as 'from Africa' then it's perfectly acceptable to say that, and surely you just respond to your colleague, 'no it's not, he told me he's from Africa'?

I wonder why the American NAACP hasn't changed their name? Or is it considered that it's raison d'etre dictates that it's not being used in a racist way?

I don't know if it's directly comparable (and it's obviously a different country from the UK), but the charity Scope changed their name some years ago because of a word that then, as now, neutrally described a specific medical condition, but which had been adopted by those with pristine intact brains (i.e. never been used) as a catch-all nasty insult to just hurl at somebody you don't like for any reason in the place of informed discussion.

*ITS raison d'etre, sorry.

I think it's a huge shame that we're in a position, because of racists, where we're effectively forced to think carefully about using otherwise innocent terms which have been hijacked and used to insult and belittle.

For example, I wouldn't hesitate to call a young white child a 'cheeky monkey' - it's just a silly, innocent way of engaging with them and making them laugh whilst bonding with them; but if I were out with a friend with a non-white child, I would deliberately avoid using it, in case offence is taken.

In an ideal world, skin colour would be no more than a simple descriptor to identify individuals in a crowd, like sex, hair colour or height/build, but the very fact that I'd feel the need to stop and think, "Oh, wait, this is a non-white child, so that might be misinterpreted" rather than just see another young child and engage with them on their level is very sad, I think.

I'd also be fearful of causing offence by offering a banana as a snack to a black child (in an otherwise appropriate situation, of course - not just a random passer-by). I'm sure this is ridiculous, but the fact that I'd feel the need to think based on somebody's skin colour also saddens me.

Fluffy did the man you described as 'from Africa' actually ever live there? If you've just assumed that because he's black, he's from Africa, then yes it was racist.

Where was it ever said that the descriptor was used just because the person is black? Maybe they said that they were from Africa. Maybe they had an unmistakeable African accent (whether black or white) of the sort that strongly suggests they weren't born in the country where they now live. Would you hesitate to say that somebody was French or Australian based on their very clear accent?

Naturally, it depends on the context. If you're introducing a new person and you say "This is Suzanne, this is Phil, this is Wendy, this is Caroline - SHE'S FROM AFRICA!, this is Mike...." then that would be unnecessarily othering somebody; but if the scenario was, say, "I met Precious in Accounts for the first time yesterday...." "Oh, that's an unusual name." "She's originally from Africa - it's not uncommon there, but anyway...." - I wouldn't see a problem there, just as if it were Jesus, who's from South America or a man called Sascha, who was assumed to be female, but is actually from continental Europe, where it's commonly a male name.

It can get very irritating being described as 'African' (as if all Africans are the same-there is so much variety across the continent that it is a particularly unhelpful description) when people from every other part of the world tend to get described by specific nationality. When was the last time you heard someone described as 'South American' or 'European'?

It is especially annoying when you have told people your nationality but the substitute that with 'African' anyway as though they just can't be bothered to remember the specifics.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll NAACP use the name for historical reasons - they have no reason to change their name as people know what their purpose was and is. Have a look at who the Southall Black Sisters are and the Black Police Association as other groups who still use an old name that don't reflect today's society. .

(Should add I discussed this with one of my sisters' decades ago and it became a big family discussion at one point.)

Where was it ever said that the descriptor was used just because the person is black?

I appreciate your point, but realistically, on a thread about 'woman of colour' where someone is saying they were called 'racist as fuck' it's not the biggest leap, is it?

I remember being taken aback at a form that I needed to complete in the US. They were gathering ethnic data but the only option for a black person was African American, which not only excluded all people of African origin who had no American connection but also excluded black Americans who may have Australian aboriginal ethnicity, for example.

I'm white so I guess not really meant I have a say but I hate the term "of colour". It sounds so mealy mouthed! What's wrong with saying "black" or "Asian" or whatever. It lumps everyone who isn't white into one group as well when they are clearly not.

@insideoutsider I really hope this isn’t a stupid question, but if you don’t mind me asking, what are your reasons for feeling that the colour of your skin defines you? Just wanting to understand! :)

Theree is a group of mixed race people in South Africa known as the coloured ,s m friend is African ,she defines herself as black ,I accompanied her to an appointment last year and we got a little lost wen she phoned the place up they sent s someone out to meet us and she was trying tom describe us without s saying I' was white and she's black because some people get offended apparently?

Why has ‘caucasian’ started creeping in? It’s an Americanism and doesn’t make any sense seeing as the Caucasus region only covers a few countries bordering Eastern Europe and Western Asia, in fact it’s mainly Asian.

Is it because if the high numbers of US cop shows shown in Britain? Is that where it’s crept in from?

Thanks for your replies . It seems I’m right to be confused. I wouldn’t set out to define anyone by the colour of their skin, but I had a rather long conversation with my daughter when she was trying to get me to identify a girl in her class. I thought I knew who she meant, but neither of us would come out and say what ethnicity she was as nether of us want to define her in that way and I couldn’t bring my self to ask ... is she black?
In my field of work some ethnicities are more prone to a particular medical condition that I work to prevent. I should include this in the info I pass on but I just don’t.

@Whatjusthappenedthere - In my field of work some ethnicities are more prone to a particular medical condition that I work to prevent. I should include this in the info I pass on but I just don’t.

I would consider your actions, in that instance, to be racist. You are effectively discriminating against people of that particular ethnicity by not telling them they are more prone to the condition.

I'd also be fearful of causing offence by offering a banana as a snack to a black child (in an otherwise appropriate situation, of course - not just a random passer-by). I'm sure this is ridiculous, but the fact that I'd feel the need to think based on somebody's skin colour also saddens me

You're overthinking this! A babnana is a perfectly acceptable snack to offer any child regardless of their skin colour.

*Banana even!

sucha why would someone want to mention a person's skin colour? I think you must know. Amber Rudd made a very bad mistake when she was talking about the pressure of social media and trolls on women inc MPS and she wanted to say it is probably worse for people of colour like Diane Abbott because of all the racists around who are huge keyboard warriors. She got the wrong term. Equally, if anyone is attacked, the police will want to know how to identify them. So tall/short/white/male/female/black/red-headed ... are all useful indicators if you have any idea at all.