Amber Rudd

[sue51]

I'm seeking to understand the differences between the terms “coloured women” and “women of colour”. They sound intrinsically similar but they may well be different, and a web search didn’t help in defining the difference.

The first term was used by Amber Rudd yesterday, and she quickly apologised as it had caused offence, but was still under criticism in the main national news. If a term is offensive then it’s right that it isn’t used, and where it has been used that should be the subject of an apology.

However, the term “women of colour” was used on Radio 4 this morning, and a review of the play Richard II at the Sam Wannamaker Playhouse by the Guardian’s Michael Billington prominently used the term “women of colour”, and one would have thought, given the Guardian’s credentials, that the term would not be used if it was likely to cause offence.

So, and asked in all sincerity, can anyone explain the difference between these two terms, and why one is deemed to be offensive while the other is apparently not? I would be mortified if I used a term which caused offence to someone but am genuinely curious about the difference in this case.

Words come and go in trend. Coloured used to be considered more polite than Black, then due to SA, Black became the word. Recently the Americans are going for people of colour. Associations are usually the cause, mostly perceptions. Stick around for a few years it will change again

It sounded as if Rudd inadvertently slipped into the polite terminology of her upbringing
As I’ve already said this doesn’t work. She’s early 50s, not 70! I would never say coloured, never mind the pressure, because it’s not a phrase I use or think normally (bit like ‘funny tinge’). So why does Rudd think it? Lack of education? Unlikely. Lack of care?

“grew up with 'black' considered really offensive. ”

I’m puzzled. I thought I was probably the oldest person on this thread, and “black” has been acceptable all my adult life.

Objections to “blackboard” and “Baa Baa Black Sheep” and other things like that (to the extent that they were real-most of them were invented by the Daily Mail Tendency) were not because they used the word “black” but because the word was used in a negative context “black mark” “black sheep of the family” -that sort of thing.

She is not a member of the public caught on the hop by a roving reporter. She is a senior politician who’s had a ton of media training.
And she's still a human being, and human beings make mistakes regardless of training. If you're aware that there have been a number of different descriptors used over time then it's entirely reasonable that you might once in a blue moon use one incorrectly just because you know it exists. It doesn't mean that you ever use it yourself at other times, it just means that you're aware it exists.
I can't help thinking that most of the people complaining on here are just Labour voters who want an excuse to be anti-Tory. (And I say that as a (currently) Tory who would make excuses for Diane Abbott's (who I don't like) making mathematical errors in that well-known interview - when you're being interviewed sometimes your mind can go blank. I felt sorry for her)

Ridiculous comparison @Bertrand, you’re scraping the barrel now. The n word might once have been used but it was always offensive and insulting in its intent. Rudd used a term which was once considered the polite one.

It never fails to amaze me how many apologists for casual racism there are on the site.

Not sure how old you are Bertrand but I am over 60 and the word "Black" would NEVER have been used - admittedly in my area - 30 years ago. I find it incredibly uncomfortable using that terminology.

Interestingly, Alesha Dixon was on the Lorraine show this morning and Lorraine used the word"Black" in relation to performers of colour. Alesha answered the question and used the phrase "Person of colour" 3 times in her reply. I did wonder if she was subtly making a point.🤔

Bluntness100's post described exactly how I feel about the Amber Rudd incident.

My understanding is that "coloured" was always a pejorative term in US whereas in U.K. it was (in the 70s?) considered to be more polite than referring to someone as "black"

It may have been considered "more polite" by white people but not by those they were describing.

I'm also fairly similiar vintage to Rudd. I remember "no coloureds" signs as a young child. Some people's preference for "Black" or "BME" over People of Colour is rooted in memories of the perjorative use of "coloured/coloureds" by white people.

Rudd has no excuses. She is educated, supposed to be informed and has a mass of advisors and media experts. Is it really so very hard to address people by their preferred terms?

I thought I was probably the oldest person on this thread, and “black” has been acceptable all my adult life

I've just turned. 50 and can categorically assure you, in the seventies, and like others on this thread, that growing up it was not considered polite or correct to refer to someone as black, you used the term coloured. It has now changed, to coloured is offensive, and black is correct, so there will be a generational element of children who were taught what to say potentially making a mistake and using the wrong term, with absolutely no ill intent meant.

Does it excuse it, no, but for me, looking a little deeper, at causation and intent is also important.

it was not considered polite or correct to refer to someone as black, you used the term coloured

By whom?

White people or the people who were the objects of the "no coloureds" signs on doors?

It may have been considered "more polite" by white people but not by those they were describing.

Yup. My mum and Aunts were young in the seventies (late teens/early 20s) and they hated ‘coloured’ as it reminded them of the signs when they arrived in the 60s.

They and the rest of my family would always describe themselves as ‘black’ even back then.

This is the biggest issue in politics today.

“I've just turned. 50 and can categorically assure you, in the seventies, and like others on this thread, that growing up it was not considered polite or correct to refer to someone as black, you used the term coloured”
I am older than that. I don’t think I have ever used “coloured” in my life! Certainly not in the 1970s when I was a student and starting out at work.

Ideally, yes. Because Dianne Abbott has never, ever made a mistake in a radio interview, has she? Only it’s numbers she can’t get right.

This is whataboutery and you know it, @Alsohuman. Oh, and "Orwellian" doesn't mean what you think it does.

It never fails to amaze me how many apologists for casual racism there are on the site.

I'm not. There are people on this site who seem to think that only screaming the n-word in black people's faces and lynching are racism. Anything else is just people being over-sensitive.

“This is the biggest issue in politics today.”

Nope. But it is the one this thread is about!

I'm not sure if what the benefit here is of arguing with people's child hood experiences, they are what they are, myself and others on here have no drum to bang in saying how it was forty odd years ago.

There is so much racism out there, trying to attack innocent people on line for stating their child hood experiences, is not helping anyone.

Coloured in the UK was the polite way about 40 years ago and black was offensive.

US still uses person of colour.
UK these days tends to use black or BAME.

Amber Rudd is about my age and we (and those older) are probably the last of those in the UK to remember just about when coloured was the kind polite way to refer to it, rather than black.

It is a minefield so if you can avoid talking about it you tend to get into less trouble.

If in doubt say now't.

Like many others, I grew up in an area where people of colour were rare. There was one girl in my secondary school. There were people on TV. That was it.

The term black was shockingly rude, and phrases which I won't repeat were normal and not intended to be offensive- though with hindsight they would have been had there ever been anyone to hear and be offended. It was considered more polite to use an oblique phrase than to directly reference someone's ethnicity.

We were all wrong, clearly, but we didn't know that.
Recently I used the word 'sospan' for the first time in maybe 30 years. It's odd how our childhood speech can take us unawares.

Xenia if in doubt say nowt has been my policy for years. Hearing the words woman of colour on the today program and seeing it in the Guardian made me curious about what makes the expression acceptable when the key word is not. I wish I had not started the thread as I had no intention to cause offense.

I think Amber Rudd should resign straight away. Leave Chris Grayling where he is. He didn't use the word 'coloured' after all.

It never fails to amaze me how many apologists for casual racism there are on the site.

Do you have any particular posters in mind? Please have the courage to name names?

Yes, please do.

It never fails to amaze me how many apologists for casual racism there are on the site.
She wasn't being racist though. She used an adjective that used to be perfectly acceptable (when black was supposed to be offensive - when I was growing up) instead of one the currently acceptable terms. And when she was made aware of her mistake she apologised. That's not racism, it's called a genuine mistake.

Racism is real, and whether the racism is insidious or expressed openly, people of colour suffer from racism and white people, whether on purpose or not, benefit from "white supremacy."

Having said that, I was actually listening to the whole Jeremy Vine, and it's SUCH a shame that she made this mistake, however or why ever she made it. (Like whether it shows she's bad or just careless/insensitive.)

Because Amber Rudd was actually saying racism and misogyny are real. She was talking about how being shouted down aggressively on social media stops women from being in politics.

Anyway what she did was wrong and her apology was sincere.

Hopefully this is a teaching moment for all of us so we can avoid hurting the feelings of people of colour.

Just this week it was revealed by Rachel Sylvester in the Times that Rudd has rolled back so many Universal Credit unfairnesses and stopped (hopefully) a hard Brexit that she's now the subject of a bullying campaign from Tory Hard Brexiteers because she is TOO progressive

Tories are shit but Amber Rudd is probably my favourite woman in politics, I can't help it, there's something admirable about her.

deally, yes. Because Dianne Abbott has never, ever made a mistake in a radio interview, has she? Only it’s numbers she can’t get right

She was unwell at the time hence forgetting. She’s hardly uneducated, having been Cambridge educated!

I’m more forgiving of slipping on numbers than I am of casual racism.