To spend some of our DP 's money when they are self funding in care home.

[PicnmixTwixnBics]

Both my DM and DF have recently moved into care homes due to ill health. They are self funding. In the last few years when they were still in their own home they gave my 2 DNs £1000. each when they passed their driving tests. Would it be seen as 'diverting assets'if they were to give a similar sum to my DD when she passes her test. My DS and I have LPA, and are managing their finances.

It's not true that if it's an established way of spending 'it's fine'.
We all know what reasonable is, it's been discussed upthread.
If you have £1,000,000 in assets you're ok with reasonably normal generous gifts,
But if your first gift is £999,999 you can't replicate it or claim a precedent.
Drip feed or lump sum, makes no difference.
Equally, if someone requires or is expected to require care, you/they cannot continue to give assets away.
They will be considered as nominal assets and included and pursued to conclusion.
There is also a moral question whether, as a Deputy or Attorney, you should continue to draw birthday or Xmas gifts from a person who requires care and would wish you to act within the restraints of the law.

Thank you for all of your input. I think I will seek official legal advice.

This can't be right, if your mother has full mental capacity and there's plenty of money, as there is in this instance, then surely you are just carrying out her wishes so that all GC have been treated the same? I can't see what the problem is here?

I think you need to involve the IMCA from the local authority.

You can't just 'involve' the IMCA (Independent Mental Capacity Advocate) you aren't Henry VIII.
They aren't there at the beck and call of family interactions. Ffs.

Define 'plenty of money '.

I'll wait.

WladAlive a simple call usually secures IMCA advice and it’s exactly the situation they should be involved with. I’ve yet to meets one who wasn’t willing to help address issues around potential financial abuse risk and helping determine the correct pathway so that all decisions are in the best interests of the elderly person.
The MCA 2005 places a statutory responsibility on LA via IMCA to act in a protective way where someone may lack capacity to understand fully a specific decision. It’s absolutely the right way to go.

Can of worms.

@PoshPenny
The issue is Deprivation of assets. With or without capacity. And 'plenty of money' isn't really about 2-3 years only left of care home fees ( £126,750 each which is 2.5 years if £1000 /week fees) when OP was also discussing potentially upping amounts they gift themselves in addition!! It was suggestive of a deprivation that L.A. could pursue if they found out
I think you've skimmed too much of previous advice. It's worth a RTFT.

must admit when i read the opening post my first thought was cf behaviour then later on came the drip feed.

@LadAlive 😂🤣.

@CherryPavlova
You misunderstand an IMCA's role. It is totally irrelevant here I'm afraid.

An IMCA is for advocacy for a person without capacity to make a specific decision. OP later says her DM has capacity. Secondly IMCAs are for those unbefriended and noncapacitous. OPs DM is not. She has family to advocate on her behalf.

Thirdly and most key, an IMCAs role is not for advice !! They are not experts on legislation and LA policy. An IMCA's role is
to advocate for & clarify a Person's views on a specific decision who lacks capacity to do so. They are unable to advise LPAs in finances.

OP has had appropriate advice on here and will seek her own legal advice. Hopefully with a solicitor that knows LA policy and legislation in this area well.

I admire the "hitting head against a brick wall" of those who have some knowledge of these issues.

Do some posters have a special filter on their MN that makes the knowledgeable posts invisible?

It will definitely by seen as deprivation of assets. The view will be that as they now need to fund their placements they can no longer afford to give such generous gifts.

Not sure if this will post twice.

To be very clear,
£300000 for two vulnerable adults in nursing or residential homes is not endless funds at all.

Each person has a threshold of £23,250 so two people is £46,500. That leaves £254,500, or £127,250 each before needing to approach LA to ask for public funding.

If self funding (SF) care home fees are for eg £1000 each (I'm assuming a bit more as I'm SE England but also that their pensions and AA (Attendance allowance as can still claim SF, will pay towards, but fees could be less at £600-900 -only OP knows what they are paying) then that really is for eg 127 weeks (approx. 2 1/2 years). Without including spending on the Person who will need personal spending for their needs (which is fine & should be reasonably done) . It's not as long as people think it will cover. (Why do PPs think LAs struggle financially to fund vulnerable people in their communities? Carehomes are expensive as they provide 24/7 care & accomodation. LAs don't have endless public funds available either.)

If it is discovered (& there are various ways) that LPAs gifted away significant sums to others or themselves in this situation, then yes it would be seen as a Deprivation of Assets and that the LPA has not acted lawfully for the Person's best interests as they have taken money needed for their care and support.

It becomes criminal law (theft) not civil law, when a Person lacks capacity OR if they didn't fully understand/can't recall but had capacity.

It's always best to act with caution in any gift giving if an LPA finances in this situation, and to keep it small and reasonable gifts, to recognise that the Person's situation has changed and they need that money for themselves.

Ps. I'm sure OP in asking for advice, will now be cautious and keep.good records.... that her DD and rest of family will understand DGP's situation has dramatically changed and unfortunately can't continue to give them such big gifts now. It's a mindset change.

LadAlive's advice was clear and succinct. I'd re-read his posts if I was OP.

@nauticant and @E20mum
😁😍

It's due to people muddling up the issues and legislation. And not fully RTFT, skipping over, or having a bit of knowledge that they stubbornly misapply. I totally get that, but there has been excellent advice from knowledgeable PPs on this thread.

@E20Mom.i meant

Great advice from @OffToBedhampton and very accurate as I'm going through financial assessment with my LA right now.

OffToBedhampton. No, I have a very good understanding. The idea of someone’s relatives deciding they have capacity to give away significant assets is flawed. They should of course seek independent legal advice but capacity is not something people have or don’t have. It is entirely decision specific.

IMCAs are for all who potentially lack capacity to make a specific decision, with a remit to safeguard the vulnerable. They MUST be involved where there is no other support but MAY also be involved where there is support but the issues (including disposal of significant assets) are involved.

@dadsaworry 😁
Oh I hope it's going well and that you've found a lovely place (yourself or relative?)

@OffToBedhampton
We are coming close to the end of self funding and will be looking for the LA to continue paying fees in a well liked and well settled in care home. I'm in the process of putting all the financial paperwork together for the FAB team as well as evidence for the NHS side. Lots of meetings with authorities coming up with the pressure of making sure you're doing the correct and right thing for everyone. It's a very stressful time.

(PS If your username reflects your locality, I'm not far away!)

If your mum has capacity she can make any gifts she likes. It could be seen as a deliberate deprivation of assets but £1,000 isn’t likely to make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

@Dadsaworry ah... alas my name is a Bridget Jones quote, and I'm further South.
Good for you though, it sounds like you are doing the absolute best for your relative, and i hope it goes well.

@IJumpedtheshark please RTFT ( as bad advice)

@CherryPavlova

Sorry but you are absolutely entirely wrong.

I don't know where you are coming from but it is terrible advice. And unlawful.

This my field. It clearly isn't your from your posts. Please stop now.

Yup @CherryPavlova is completely incorrect. A quick google should help even a layperson understand the IMCA role. I’ve been a social worker for too long and this is my bread and butter. I refer to IMCAs regularly and the criteria are strict and based on law and guidance.

I do think people who self fund should be able to give gifts. It is not black and white. I do worry about gifting large sums of £1000. I’ll give a personal example of appropriate use of funds. My grandma has gifted every grandchild £100 on their birthday since her first grandchild was born 40 years ago. If she were to lose capacity to manage her finances, I would say it may be reasonable for her to continue given that she only has 2 grandchildren and she has significant amounts of money. Some local authorities take a very hard line on Deprivation of Assets and some do not but why take a risk?

From my experience dealing with my mum and her finances/care home - I now believe it's wise to have a certain amount of money to enable you to choose your own care home and pay for a couple of years, but not to have oodles of it as you'll just pay for the rest of your days. Might as well enjoy it while you're fit and healthy.

If you have nothing then social services choose your care which is grim.

I'll be getting rid of most of my assets to my children

BigSandy I agree with you re ensuring you have enough money to self fund for a couple of years. My mum was really upset at the thought that her carefully saved money, that she'd earmarked for our inheritance, was going to pay for her care. I'm just pleased she had it, after seeing some of the council run homes, at least her money meant that she was placed in a decent, pleasant, well run, one, rather than one that smelt of pee.
In one of the ones I went to visit, all the residents were slumped in chairs round the edge of the room, placed in such a way that they couldn't talk to each other, when the manager showed me round she bellowed 'hello - say hello to this person that's looking round', and kind of shamed them into responding. It was awful and i felt embarrassed for these poor people being made to perform for the visitor. So at least my mum's money bought her a care home that offers respect to their residents, although it is an eye-watering amount of money per week.