To think there needs to be a word to describe sexual response from unwanted sexual contact?

[clairemcnam]

First of all, this is not a personal thread, but a philosophical one.

It is well known that girls and women can get wet and orgasm during rape, just as boys and men can get erect during rape. But we have no words to describe sexual response from unwanted sexual contact.

Using the word orgasm or getting wet or erect sounds as if this rape or sexual contact is wanted, when it is not. And this I think increases the shame that people feel when it happens to them.

It would be good to have a separate word or phrase for this. It would mean we could more accurately describe what happened and this would hopefully help people understand that this is a reaction they have no control over. In the same way you can not help sneezing if you are irritated by pollen.

It hasnt happened to me but even before reading plinks reply i understood OPs reasoning and logic. Tje title also makes it absolutely clear what its about.

As well as as Plink said making the victim feel shameful for their body responding as if they were enjoying the sexual exploitation of their bodies against their will. My thought was actually that it could indeed be a form of defence well she/he got wet/orgasimed/got an erection theh must have been willing. When actually no it is as people who have pointed out, and involutry physiological response.

Or do those like the first reply with their "wtf have i just read" think that rape victims bodies dont respond to it like that. It does. Its actually the way the body reaponse to any sexual contact.

Maybe some of the replies are showing exactly why there needs to be a scecfic term. To show that sometimes bodys response to stimulas is not always controlable. Yes its an involuntry physiological response. But i guess OP is saying that you can have those in numerous situations.

Maybe involuntry sexual response would be better but then i dont think thats the complete answer either

I think Involuntary Sexual Response actually describes what it is.

You could add 'to assault or to trauma' to adequately describe it.

It is never ever mentioned, so I think everyone is brave to say ' Come on now, let's actually mention the unmentioned'.

And I'm actually a bit annoyed at the posters trying to shut down the mere discussion of what might actually be a fairly typical experience of victims of sexual assault.

I know my ex didn't feel it was actually child sexual abuse as he got erect, so thought, I must have enjoyed it, it wasn't abuse. He was afraid to say anything about it as he felt ashamed and as if he would be blamed.
Maybe this is the last taboo that needs to be banished to further protect people in society from the shame that so often accompanies sexual abuse or assault.
I suspect, strongly suspect, that perpetrators know that it is a way they can control particularly male victims 'Come on now, you enjoyed it too'. ETC.

It's not an easy subject, but I strongly believe it should be spoken about.

And the response to the perpetrators should be No Bastard, I didn't enjoy it, my body responded. But I have a fucking brain that supersedes any physical response and I didn't fucking enjoy it you abusive paedophile!

I suspect, strongly suspect, that perpetrators know that it is a way they can control particularly male victims 'Come on now, you enjoyed it too'. ETC

This is exactly what i was trying to say sure although if women become lubricated (get wet as the OP has put it) that too will often be seen by abusers as sign that their victims body is enjoying it.

And the response to the perpetrators should be No Bastard, I didn't enjoy it, my body responded. But I have a fucking brain that supersedes any physical response and I didn't fucking enjoy it you abusive paedophile!*

Its not just abusers that need telling this but people who victims might tell. I guess yoir right its the oh we can't think tuag the victims might have responded sexually to whag was happening to them so lets not mention it.

I think it is widely known about among Sexual Abuse Therapists. The general public doesn't appear to know so much. It's certainly not something that's talked about.

When my ex spoke to me about the abuse, I watched some youtube therapy video on there and it was spoken about. I didn't know how to talk to him about it, so just tried to find out what I could. That's the only place I've ever heard of it.
I'm not going to spell out what the abuse entailed, but it was along the lines of, 'look how much you're enjoying this'.

DP never went to counselling, and he's now ex DP. I truly think it utterly screwed him over. And that guilt and shame was all he carried. Because he felt he was complicit.

I hope MN don't remove this thread and that people read it and actually realise how abusers operate.

And it's not just paedophiles, but adult abusers too, particularly within a relationship, who will use the same mantra.
As I said, I don't think it's the same within violent circumstances, but violent rape by a stranger is relatively uncommon compared to what I suppose is rape/sexual assault by people you know. And that is possibly one of the myriad of reasons why it never gets reported.

for @PlinkPlink for her honesty on a difficult subject.

I think Involuntary Sexual Response actually describes what it is.
You could add 'to assault or to trauma' to adequately describe it

I think a term like this is correct, the complexity of the response needs a physiological term.
If you want a simple one word term, nongasm could do, but I prefer the physiological description

I think Bruce and Nosh has the right idea. I think a simple one word term is what the OP is suggesting would make it easier for victims to explain it to themselves and professionals.

I understand the correct physiological term should be used by professionals but also in tandem with a more readily understandable one word name. I think if this word and the definition became more mainstream then victims of sexual abuse would possibly feel that it was not their fault because the got wet or had an erection.

YANBU OP. ‘Involuntary physiological response’ may be accurate but it isn’t specific, it’s a mouthful, it’s not plain English and it’s not something everyone would understand.

plinkplink I really hope that therapy has helped you accept that there is no shame in this.

I don’t think it’s about shutting down a discussion, I think it’s about the motives of the OP.

It’s a discussion which is massively important and potentially very upsetting - the poster has posted extensively over the last two days but not before. I think it’s an odd thread to start, especially with the caveat that it is “a philosophical discussion”

I’d hate people to be encouraged to share very personal stories on an open forum and it end up as titillation.

* 'Involuntary physiological response’ may be accurate but it isn’t specific, it’s a mouthful, it’s not plain English and it’s not something everyone would understand.*

I think more people would understand that; and it'd be easier to teach what it means, then inventing a completely new meaning to an existing word, or a new word. Linguistics don't develop that fast. It would take a long time to become generally understood, and that's without considering that a lot of people would avoid talking about this topic and therefore not use the word anyway.

I think this is an education piece, it's something that needs to be talked about and become general knowledge, but I'm not sure it needs a new word.

I'm not an Advanced Searcher as I take each thread on its merits.

I see no titillation here. I do see it as a topic that can never ever be discussed. If she is banned for this thread, she'll become a PBP and nothing she ever posts will be taken at face value.
I genuinely think that it's an important topic to raise, as from my experience, it's the source of most shame to victims.
Nobody really would want to put their name to this thread. Nobody wants to admit to being a victim. And certainly nobody wants to speak the unspeakable truth.

Maybe it's a troll. If it is, sorry bitch, you ain't going to get your kicks here. But we might actually manage to minimise your future victim pool by letting this be known.

It's a win win for it to be discussed. Mentioned at least and for people to become aware of it.

This thread is clearly necessary as can be seen from the pearl clutchy posts. We all need to understand that this is a thing and hopefully reduce the shame felt by victims of rape and assault and educate people who one day might be sitting on a jury.

Nobody needs to get graphic about this, but acknowledging that it is a common response to traumatic, life-altering abuse, needs to be discussed.
The sick bastards will groom their victims on this basis.
The victims will hide in the shame of what response their body had. So they won't tell. Particularly children. Because they will be told that they enjoyed it.

I didn't know this was a thing, so I've learnt something.

"Involuntary arousal"? Although in a way all arousal is involuntary, and the issue here is whether the person was or wasn't voluntarily engaged in the act. "Non-participatory arousal"?

I think something like 'mechanical sexual response' works in that it places distance between the body and the mind. Words like 'automatic' and 'involuntary' don't adequately distinguish between emotional and physical responses, yet 'mechanical' signifies that there is no psychological or emotional complicity at all.

For advanced searchers, I deleted my previous account and reregistered with a new email address after the latest MN security breach. My previous email had my actual name in it e.g. claire.mc@hotmail.
I am sorry to hear from those on this thread who have gone through this.

I posted about it being a philosophical discussion as I did not want lots of comments assuming I was talking about myself being raped. I do not need support.

And I do think it is wise not to share details of any rape or sexual assault, I should have put that in my opening post, but nobody has.

Yes this is well known amongst rape counsellors. I remember the first time I heard about this I was shocked as I did not realise women could orgasm and not want what was happening. I do think involuntary erections are talked about a bit more.

And I agree we need a word that could easily be understood by the public. I think unless you can easily name your experience, it is more difficult to talk about it. Sadly I do not have an idea for a suitable word.

I actually can't believe the early responses on this thread. If you've never heard of this or find the concept offensive you're the reason we need to talk about it

Also OP specifically says it's a philosophical discussion, not a personal one, so she's not asking to hear your stories

I'm not sure we can get any more specific than something along the lines of "involuntary physiological response" because apparently plenty of people aren't even familiar with that... if we tried to come up with a special word for it we'd have to explain it from the beginning each time.

X post - slow typist!

Yes true, if I was a sick troll I would post saying this happened to me, has it happened to anyone else. Sick trolls ask for stories to be shared.

But it is clear that some people on this thread are shocked that this happens.
It still haunts me a bit that one MNer said that when she does not want sex, her husband just touches her, and her body responds - so her body must really want it. She thought that any physical response means she does want it, even though she had previously said she didn't. And I suspect there are a lot of women out there who think the same way.

Involuntary arousal.

she's not asking to hear your storiesconfused

No need for the face - it’s not unreasonable to remind people that it’s an open forum and that we have no idea about the motivation of posters - or of any of the millions of people who can read this.