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Original poster

DS despises Catcher In The Rye. So proud of him.

256 replies

ReanimatedSGB · 14/02/2019 23:48

I'm also rather surprised that this tedious wank is still being pushed on schoolkids as Great Literature. I hated it when I read it in my teens and am very glad to find that DS is as unimpressesd as I was - it's just one long white-boy whine, isn't it?

OP posts:
Juells · 15/02/2019 08:22

Also absolutely hilarious that you think this is something which affects white men more than women and people of colour.

No, I'm a woman and I get pissed off sometimes that I'm not as successful as some other people I went to college with, but it's not because they're white men or women that they're successful, it's because they're better than I am, more talented, worked harder, were more focused, didn't have children to look after. Equally, I'm more successful than some others, because I'm more talented than they are even if they work harder. There's never a level playing field.

Should we expect black rap artists and feel they have an unfair advantage in that field? Do you think Indians prefer Holywood movies to their own?

Buddytheelf85 · 15/02/2019 08:24

The only reason it's such a bit deal is because Salinger never wrote again and refused interviews. It created this mystique that CinR is more than it actually is.

Yes! This and of course the fact that Mark Chapman was arrested with a copy of it. And its association with other violent shootings. It’s achieved a notoriety and cultural significance way out of proportion to its literary merit.

I’m a bit appalled by the posters objecting to the phrase ‘white boy whine’ on the basis that ‘black boy whine’ would be unacceptable. Such simplistic thinking. Do you really not see any qualitative difference between those two phrases? Do you think that if the book would have been exactly the same if it had narrated the experiences of a young black man in 1950s America? (Clue: it definitely, definitely wouldn’t.)

LilaJude · 15/02/2019 08:29

No, I'm a woman and I get pissed off sometimes that I'm not as successful as some other people I went to college with, but it's not because they're white men or women that they're successful, it's because they're better than I am, more talented, worked harder, were more focused, didn't have children to look after.

So can I just clarify, are you suggesting that the reason white men are so disproportionately successful and revered across almost all artistic fields has nothing to do with institutionalised prejudice operating in their favour? You’re saying that it’s just that they happen to be more talented, hard working and focused than the women and people of colour?

JenniferJareau · 15/02/2019 08:31

Hardly surprising when you casually use phrases like 'white-boy whine'.

LilaJude · 15/02/2019 08:31

I think the more you read - and the more widely you read - the more interesting all books (even the more flawed ones) become.

Personally, I have found the opposite. The more I read, the less tolerance I have for badly written or problematic books, regardless of their supposed literary merit.

Ribbonsonabox · 15/02/2019 08:35

And I think you would be proud if your son managed to identify the troubling attitude towards women and lost sympathy for the character because of that.... I mean that's really positive isnt it? Dont we need more men like that in the world? Ones that wont excuse or turn a blind eye to misogyny because 'oh yes just had a hard time, hes a troubled genius' etc etc.... I mean haven't we had enough of the that for the last few hundred years?
I'd be happy if my son turned around and said 'actually this guy is just a wanker'

Namestheyareachangin · 15/02/2019 08:45

I can't for a second think why you'd be proud of him disliking as book.

Several people have said this and I don't get it. It's not as if every book has merit. Uncritically liking all books just because they're books is not intellectual or intelligent is it?

I'd be proud of my kid for disliking, for example, Mein Kampf, because I'd hope they were appalled by the ideas contained in it. And yes I hate Catcher In The Rye too because the central character is so self-absorbed, unkind and unlikable, as well as being given to severe misogyny.

Books are not holy things; they are texts to be read, understood, analysed and ultimately judged. So there's nothing to be ashamed of not liking a book; I'd be proud of my teenager for seeing beyond the superficial adolescent appeal of CitR and recognising it is actually badly written self-indulgent drivel.

JennieLee · 15/02/2019 08:48

Heroes and heroines aren't interesting unless they are flawed.

Can somebody name one interesting novel with a wholly and consistently virtuous central character.

The heroine of Mansfield Park is pretty consistently 'good' - and it is Jane Austen's least popular novel.

I also think it's important that we teach young people about history and prejudice in the past and to look at the way in which books that were progressive in some ways/in their day, can also be seen as reactionary. We can't do that without examining what was written and created then...

Works of art are not 'universal'. They are the product of a particular place and time.

Original poster
ReanimatedSGB · 15/02/2019 08:49

I don't tell him how to look at a book FFS. I hadn't even thought about CITR in decades, but he came home from school complaining about how boring and whiny it was and I remembered how much I had disliked it myself. Aren't those of you complaining ever just a bit pleased/proud when your DC share your opinions about something?

OP posts:
TortoiseLettuce · 15/02/2019 08:50

You must know that expressing pride in one aspect of a person doesn’t mean you don’t believe them to have any other positive qualities

Then why be proud of something so ridiculous and snobby and pointless? Why not be proud of something that has actual value, like being kind? You’re sad if you think it really matters what opinion a child holds about a certain book, or if you think the rest of the real world gives a crap. Have you ever thought that perhaps your child has just picked up your superior snobby attitude and therefore it isn’t exactly something to be proud of?

multivac · 15/02/2019 08:52

I remain very fond of Catcher in the Rye, for a range of reasons. Disliking a book is fine, of course, regardless of how it's perceived by others. Disliking it purely on the grounds that its protagonist isn't a very charming person, on the other hand, is a bit odd. Especially when that's rather the point of the story...

DontDribbleOnTheCarpet · 15/02/2019 08:52

I read The Catcher In The Rye at school and hated it then. However, I think it does capture the self-obsessed wankery of some teenage boys very well. Unfortunately that just doesn't make it an enjoyable read for me.

I think it is a good thing to be able to not follow the herd, and to say that actually you don't like something just because the general opinion seems to be that you should. I felt the same way about Wuthering Heights, War and Peace and Romeo and Juliet.

Fazackerley · 15/02/2019 08:52

I enjoyed it. Of course yhere will be people that hate it, but the white boy tears comment shows a breathtaking lack of critical thinking.

ScruffbagsRUs · 15/02/2019 08:53

I have to admit reading it in school, but I cannot, for the life of me, remember a thing about it.. It just didn't interest me TBH.

I can't for a second think why you'd be proud of him disliking as book.

People are entitled to an opinion. If a person has read a particular book and didn't find it very good, it's not for anyone else to decide whether or not the reader should/shouldn't be proud of forming their own opinion on it.

diddl · 15/02/2019 08:55

That's my reading sorted for the day!

I just couldn't relate to it at all when I read it.

LilaJude · 15/02/2019 08:57

Ffs disliking a book isn’t having a superior, snobby attitude. And I think that exhibiting an ability to think critically and form an independent opinion IS something that has value. And who’s to say OP isn’t also proud of her kid for being kind?! You can be proud of lots of different things at the same time!

And for someone who apparently sets so much store by kindness, you’ve been needlessly unkind on this thread. There was such a mean sourness to you saying OP’s son must have no other qualities to be proud of. Why don’t you practice what you preach?

Alsohuman · 15/02/2019 08:58

Personally I quite like having my opinions challenged. Dismissing this book as white boy whine is to discount the conflict and otherness of having a foot in two cultures and feeling you belong to neither. The overwhelming pain of grief. The utter and complete discomfort and confusion of adolescence. And, of course it's misogynistic, it was was written in 1951!

Jamiefraserskilt · 15/02/2019 08:59

I hated Steinbeck. We read lots of his books over the years and I just remember them making me feel sad and uncomfortable, perhaps because of where I was in my life at the time. Perhaps this was what the author wanted? Now I am old enough to choose, I opt for books that bring me joy or books that make my brain work hard to solve the mystery before they do. Far from creating a love for Steinbeck, I hate every word he wrote and will not revisit that misery. I never mentioned this to my kids. Sadly, my teens have his books in their lessons and it makes them feel the same to the point they don't want to analyse or learn the text because they hate it. Some people love him just not me.

Namestheyareachangin · 15/02/2019 09:00

@JennieLee

*Heroes and heroines aren't interesting unless they are flawed.

Can somebody name one interesting novel with a wholly and consistently virtuous central character*

They don't have to be virtuous, but you have to care about them. Not like them or root for them, but actually care about their motives and actions and the consequences. Some of the best novels have an antihero who is totally unlikeable but you want to know what they're thinking, you want to know what happens to them. All I wanted was for Holden to shush, because he was BORING. Just trivial and self-obsessed and BORING. If that was what I wanted to read I could just write a book myself Wink

Polarbearflavour · 15/02/2019 09:01

I love it. And most people are phonies so Holden was onto something!

easyandy101 · 15/02/2019 09:01

It's a book, not everyone will like it, not everyone will understand it, not everyone will relate to it, that's the nature of literature

The idea that reflects it's actual quality is hilarious

Namestheyareachangin · 15/02/2019 09:02

And, of course it's misogynistic, it was was written in 1951!

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing the OP's son is uncomfortable reading misogyny and doesn't like the book because it's full of it. Just because it's a 1951 text doesn't mean you have to read it with a 1951 head on.

echt · 15/02/2019 09:02

Aren't those of you complaining ever just a bit pleased/proud when your DC share your opinions about something?

But that isn't what you said in your OP, OP.

The white boy whine bit was you, wasn't it?

Namestheyareachangin · 15/02/2019 09:03

So beyond informed opinion what does determine the quality of a book? Because if you know the answer to that all the critics and literary academics can pack up and go home now...

labazsisgoingmad · 15/02/2019 09:03

its a classic read strange to think that our children are reading same books as us at school